waysider

The first one is Beverly Sills. That's all I got.

Ain't that how life goes? Just when you decide to get serious, everybody else wants to monkey around.

Yes,Virginia, there is a Santa Clause.

Mr. Radio Man "I don't want to go back to the olden days" Be thankful. There are some amongst us who never left them. P.S." Mr". sounds so formal. Do you friends call you "Skip"?

What's a MALPack?

When I took the PFAL class, three areas of study that were stressed extensively were: !.) figures of speech 2.) the seven administrations 3.) the "great mystery" revealed in Ephesians. All three (and others as well ) can be found in Bullingers' writings. Yet, when I heard VPW teach them, he most definately implied that the origins of these ideas were unique to him(VPW) and made no attempt to convince anyone otherwise. It was presented by the local leadership as some sort of miraculous coincident that Bullinger too had arrived at the four crucified conclusion(Which for those inclined to do some legwork, has been academically discredited right here on GSC.) Even that in itself would nullify the claim that no one else had seen these things since the first century. When I became a class instructor, one thing we were told to specifically do after the session on "four crucified" was to instruct the students to NOT repeat this teaching to outsiders. It may have even been in the instructors syllabus(I don't recall.) The students were told that if outsiders got wind of this and wanted to know more they were to sign them up for "the class" and let VPW present it.Pleasant memories of times spent in The Way have absolutely no bearing on the fact that these teachings were not acceptably credited nor were they uniquely shown to VPW as they had not been shown for millenia. In summary, VPW intentionally failed to give proper credit for others' work and the claim that no one had seen these things since the first century was an out and out falsehood. (Yes, we had some good times and yes, we learned some lessons that were beneficial ) I only added that last part about good times and beneficial lessons so that if someone were so inclined they could cut and paste it out of context.

Moryan--------You have asked some very pointed questions about particular beliefs. I am not currently involved with The Way so my answers are gleaned from past experiences. 1.)Anti-Depressants-----Definately taboo based on a number of beliefs involving : a)Devil spirit possesion being invited by pharmaceutical usage. b)Using the "law" of believing to reach a goal of healing. 2.)Drinking------not o.k. for rank and file but practised to extremes by upper level "leadership" ("Dr." Wierwille had a severe alcohol addiction which is well documented on this site. It ultimately contributed to his demise.) 3.)Anti-Semetics----As far as VPW (Victor Paul Wierwille) was concerned, followers of "The Way" were the chosen people of God and the Jews are a counterfit, not even connected to the Chosen ones of Biblical times who Wierwille said had been abandoned by God.(In not so politically correct terms he despised the Jews and RC's) 4.)Tithing-----10% was Old Testament. Not nearly as good as "sons of God " could do today. Why not 15 or 20 %?( or anything in excess of current needs?) And these are recollections of how it was before things got REALLY bad!(If you get my drift)

Never been part of CES. Have no desire to be. But a "council on prophesy"?!! Gimme a break. Isn't there already more than enough prophesy in the scripture than anyone could possibly hope for that enlightens us on how to live a good and Godly life? My Mom always taught us kids (and later taught her twig) that God loves you for who you are,right here and now. Don't need a bunch of prophesy or in depth research to understand that. Just need to accept it and make it part of daily life by loving one another.

Moryan Maybe it's the skeptic in me, but do you also find it a bit curious that members of her family have severed ties with The Way and yet she still holds fast to her allegiance to the group? When I was involved, people who left the group were considered "cop-outs". The terminology,of course, has changed over time but they are still regarded as the lowest of the low because they once knew "The Truth" and have forsaken it.(This is their take on the situation, not mine.) We were told to invite them back twice or maybe three times(I don't remember now) and if they did not change their minds we were to "shake the dust off our feet". (Move on with the work of "the ministry"and forget about them.) If people she has known all her life are not able to reach her sense of reason, it is unlikely you have much of a chance. Perhaps, as one poster has suggested, she sees you as a knight in shining armor who can validate her desire to leave. Or, as another has suggested, perhaps she sees you as a "trophy" that will vindicate her association with her "earthly,natural family"(Their descriptors,not mine). Then again, maybe she is just confused about where she should invest her commitment. I suppose there is a fourth possibility, and that is that she is truly "sold out" to The Way. I can't tell you what to do but if you should decide to investigate by attending fellowships, be very(and I mean VERY careful about what you decide to accept of their teachings.) Incidently, when I was involved, The Pope, Bishops,Cardinals,etc. were considered to be "born of the seed of Satan" which is a permanent, unforgivable sin.(In their theological world) You have shown a great deal of personal integity,in my opinion ,by trying to sort this out in a caring and logical manner. For this I commend you.

When I was first introduced to The Way about 35 years ago, it was by a small group of young people who were out "witnessing"(recruiting). Almost immediately, one young lady in the group took a special interest in me and we began a one on one relationship that was platonic but personal and intense. She signed me up for "the class" and personally "undershepherded" me. At about the midway point of the class(Which at that time was a total commitment of three weeks of time) I discovered quite by accident that she was actually the fiance of the person conducting the class. All these people(except the other students ) were completely aware of the deception that was being perpetrated. By this time(and we're only talking about a few weeks) I was already so sold on the "ministry" that I considered my relationship to her secondary to The Way and this amazing new take on life that they offered. Now, I'm not suggesting this is what has happened in your case. What I am asking though is whether an organization that would use such dubious tactics is one that you would want to become a part of? And yet I stayed for too many more years than I care to admit! That's how powerful mind control can be.

Ryan Welcome to The Cafe. The reason she refuses to even consider what you are saying is easy to explain. That is what she was programmed(notice I did not say taught) to do in session #7 of the Power For Abundant Living class. If she was a student of the newer version of the foundational class, she undoubtably got this same information but,not being a student of that version, I couldn't tell you where in that class it is presented. In essense, the teaching states that to even question what has been taught will lead to a downfall just as surely as it led to a downfall for Eve in the garden of Eden. It is(imo) a precurser to mind control and self delusion. It is a hard concept to overcome because,after all, the person feels that to even weigh the value of THAT teaching in itself could lead to their downfall. Ryan, there are some folks here who severed their ties with The Way many, many years ago and yet some still struggle with the idea of considering what they were taught with an open and inquistive mind. It is highly unlikey she will change her dedication to her beliefs without a lot of concentrated effort and a willingness to consider she may have been taught some things that were false. You can't "keep you mouth shut and grit you teeth" forever. From what you have posted, it does not appear that you are asking her to question God but rather a cult that claims to have the inside track. "Get on the bus, Gus and get yourself free!". That's just my opinion.

Yep, that would make me the oldest. I still remember the whole neighborhood coming outside at the same time to catch a glimpse of Sputnik :( Oh, it was Edd Byrnes(2 "d"s and an "s") Kookie was the nickname for his characters' real name which was Gerald LLoyd Kookson III.

Grandpaw, we got a new kitty cat! (Oh, that's nice!) It's a boy cat, wanna know how I can tell? (OK.) It's got whiskers!

If WTH had simply put "---------" around all but the phrase "That is the law of believing" and then stated "That is the law of believing", it would give an entirely different meaning to the post. It would then be simply a statement of description rather than a personal defense of the premise. I have no idea if that was WTHs' intent. Perhaps WTH can rejoin the discussion and clarify that point.

Are you saying you are not ready to answer it now? If not now, then when?

I only know about that stuff 'cause my Grandpaw told me. :)

It's never really Christmas without Clarence Carters' "Backdoor Santa". WARNING!-----Not intended for "family" listening.

Groucho------I must humbly disagree with you in comparing him to Jim Jones,Charley Manson and David Duke. ( The general public actually HEARD of those guys.)

Doctor to patient: "Zis fascination mit large esses, ven did it all shtart,hmmm?"

Geeze, Mudhead, where's your school spirit? It's in the rumble seat. Want a snort? :unsure:

Motherof2-----Here is what I remember from my days as a "wayfer". The teachings in TWI on Hebrews 11:1 stated that when one reads the word "faith" in Hebrews, it is to be interpreted as "believing". The reasoning for this is that they(TWI) taught that "faith" did not exist until the new birth became available. It all fell under a large umbrella of scripture that was used to validate the "law of believing". There is an old adage that states"seeing is believing". TWI used Heb. 11:1 and many other scriptures to turn that expression backwards so that it became"believe first and then you will see (the fruit of your believing)."Now, going one step further," you must take action on your believing before you will see results." There is, of course, some truth in this thinking. For example: You may need/want a better job. You send out resumes, interview with perpective employers and take various other actions associated with the job seeking process. Your "believing action" pays off and finally you see the result manifest itself as a new job. Now depending on where and when you were taught these things they would sometimes be twisted and contorted to take on a sort of "wishing things into existance" type of thinking. The problem that enters here is that simply wishing something is going to happen and picturing it happening do not make it actually happen. So, the axiom of "believing is seeing " is at its' root level a fallacy. This is where (imo) this concept of believing your way through the problems that life throws at you originated. It even got to a point where it was unacceptible to call a problem just that: a "problem." We called them "opportunities" because it implied that it was merely an "opportunity" to believe for a positive outcome. Along with this was the idea of "positive and negative confession". (Both outloud and in your thinking) because according to the catch phrase:"what you are confessing, you are possesing". This stuff can get quite convoluted and the mind has a tendency to want to rationalize things that logic tells you are nonsence. Sorry I rambled on. I don't know any quick way to get to the heart of what Hebrews chap. 11 supposedly was teaching us. That is not to say that there are not great truths in this section of scripture. I just don't believe(imo) that it can be used to prove the existance of some sort of magical "law of believing".

Stranger things than that have happened at The Hotel California! :blink: You're up, Wasway.

Thanks,HCW. Coming from someone with your background, that carries a lot of weight.

JonnyLingo-------My statement about doctors being seen as the enemy was specifically referring to the attitude and teachings that existed in Fellowlaborers in the mid '70's. We were in a rural setting and kept a tightly regulated schedule that stretched from 5am til midnight when all lights were to be out. To take time out to see a dentist or doctor was definately not something that was done without close scrutiny. I realize not everyone was in this situation or subjected to this kind of rigid behaviour. When anyone did see a dentist or doctor or eye doctor, it was a very big deal and many times people would "tough out " things that really would have been best served with medical attention. Sometimes the consequenses were long lasting and damaging. You had to get special permission to take time off for any kind of appointment and 50 other people were aware of your absence. As to life insurance being called "death insurance" I heard it taught too many times to count. I think perhaps the first one I heard to use this term was Uncle Harry but I don't know if that's where the term originated.

Dot It may appear at first glance that we disagree but I think that is because I was not very clear in how I interpreted TempleLadys' post. I agree with you on the post by OM. I also agree with you on the rebutal by WW. The difficulty arises in that I thought TLs' response was referring to the broad scope of God sorting things out at the Bema. Perhaps that is what she had in mind. Perhaps that is not at all what she had in mind. The bottom line is that I should not have assumed what she had in mind but rather I should have invited her to elaborate on her statement. Speaking only for myself, I do believe God will sort it all out at the appropriate time. I feel confident I can believe that because God himself gave me revelation to that effect just this morning as I was pumping gas during the greatest snowstorm anyone has seen in over 2,000 years. Fortunately, it let up just in time for me to get to the PFAL class on time. We learned some pretty amazing things there. For example: Jesus was Gods' son! I told my grandson Cletus(that's his name) and he said "Jeepers, Grandpa, who didn't know that?!" What has me puzzled is where he ever heard a word like "jeepers".