waysider

Personally, I couldn't care less if she sits cross-legged on a purple carpet and prays to the almighty horned toad in the sky. But, if you are going to preach that homosexuality is devil posession and then proceed to practice it, isn't that a bit like saying"Hey, look at me! I'm posessed!"? Mind you, now, it has not been documented conclusively that such is,in fact, the reality of what is actually going on.

When I posted earlier, I was not trying to be judgemental or even assign some spiritual aspect to the discussion. I was simply stating a personal experience that was part of my life many years ago. My friend was an out-patient with diagnosed schizophenia and took very powerful meds. by RX. He was very artistic, pacifistic, and had a heart of gold. He was in a fragile state. When he met these people, he became obsessed with the satanic bible and coven type activity. There was talk on his part of small animal sacrifise but I never saw any evidence that this was factual. One of my loving twig mates was kind enough to tell him they knew he was posessed. I just tried to help him see that he needed to slow down a bit and think about what he was becoming involved with. This was early '70s and this stuff was quite popular at that time. Remember the Stones album with the 3D cover? When he died, the police quite naturally interviewed me. They asked me if he was involved with any of this activity and I told them he was.When I pointed out to them that his suicide note was not written in what appeared to be his own handwriting(I had known him for 15 years), they seemed to shrug it off. I don't know any thing about suicide notes but it seemed weird to me. Of course, my involvement with TWI required that I put it all in my past and move on. Obviously, I was not able to completely do that because here I am 35 years later recounting the event. I felt I had to say that because even after all these tears, I still miss the big doofus.

Wierwille taught, as early as the PFAL class, that life begins with the first breath and ends with the last. That was the foundation for the various paramutations that evolved over the years. As with many things he taught, he had a tendency to take a complex issue and reduce it to utter simplicity. Then, to compound the issue, he made cynical remarks about anyone who couldn't see how "simple" the answer was. The implication was often that if you don't see the simplicity you must not have reached a high enough level of spiritual maturity. Take your pick of examples: adultery, abortion, mental illness, cancer, poverty, etc. The answer was always "get them into the PFAL class so they can see the simplicity for themselves". Consider ,if you will, the much heralded "green card" used to enroll students for PFAL. It really doesn't matter that someone may jump in and point out that they personally received this promise or that. The point is that this "magical class" reduced the answers to lifes' crucial issues to one simple Bible class. Does that mean that there was nothing of value to be found in the class? No,in my opinion, but it also doesn't mean that everything in life can be reduced to some cut and dry, pat solution.

Geeze! I've never seen this thread before.(Not stalkin' ya, Bolshevik,honest) (There was another thread on abortion in the doctrinal section a couple of months ago.) I'm gonna have to go back and look at this one. OK---That's it. I'm never going to follow you from one thread to another ever again. HAHA-----had my fingers crossed behind my back!

Bolsky It may seem like a lot to sort through but I know you can handle it 'cause we're all "believin' fer ya". But seriously, here it is in a nut shell (OK, I meant to say a nut's opinion) The thoughts and attitude you carry around in your mind can have a very real effect on your physical health as well as your mental outlook and wellness.(This has been highly documented in medical literature.) The thoughts and attitude you carry around in your mind can NOT have any real effect on whatever happens in the physical world unless you yourself take some sort of action to bring it to pass or keep it from coming to pass. If you want to remove "religion" from the equation, just ask yourself what law of physics regarding energy or energy transfer could even remotely explain the "law" of believing?, none that I can think of, especially not "action/reaction". I'm sure Oprah has garnered a lot of attention with her endorsement of "the Secret" but that's the driving force behind the entertainment business---------"Keep their attention!"(It's pretty hard to entertain the public if they don't pay attention.)

Wow! That just about says it for me, too. Except that the 5 years turned out to be much longer and I never really believed I would get posessed.(I did think,though, that"bad" things would happen, especially after I quit tithing/ABS.)

When I got involved with The Way, college was not really an option for me. I was already on my own and had very little money. I was trying to put together some kind of career in music and theatre.I had made a lot of solid connections. (My talents were only so-so but you never know where the next road may lead.) Sooo, I stopped pursuing my dream in favor of TWI. As I was on my way out of TWI, I went to school on a loan and worked night jobs.(I was only a twiggy by this time) I got my A.A.S. in a medical field and discovered I hated the work I had studied for. So, I went back for another associate and almost finished when the school pulled the plug on the program. This was a state school, too.( TWI is not the only organization that has misrepresented a program.) Now, I work in a mechanically related field. It's not great but it pays the bills(If I keep them low enough) and I'm not that far away from retirement. I don't have regets about college per se, but I do reget not pursuing my initial dreams. I guess a lot of people in this world who have never heard of TWI could recount similar events. No matter who you are or what you've accomplished, you will always find yourself saying"What if?" from time to time. That's human nature. But, to address the initial question: TWI was no substitute for college by a long shot.

I don't consider your question to be "mocking" at all. It deserves an honest answer. I will try to do that, although, I am only speaking for myself and don't presume my answer to be any "voice of expertise". What you are calling "exorcism" would be somewhat parallel to what The Way called" casting out devil spirits". There was a protocol of sorts that had to be followed in order to do this. Step one involved knowledge of the spirits' presence. This came by virtue of a type of Divine revelation known as " discerning of spirits". This was to be used in conjunction with two other types of revelation called "word of knowledge" and "word of wisdom"( which is what to do with the d.o.s. and w.o.k.) Absence of these factors prohibited the process. Furthermore, it was taught that, unless a person subsequently made changes in their thinking and actions after the casting out, the devil spirit would return and bring even more spirits along with it. Thus, supposedly having knowledge that someone was "posessed was not an automatic license to cast out the spirit/spirits. I am stating the above as a matter recall and not as a matter of judgement of the process or particpants. Hope that helps. This is why it becomes a critical issue if, in fact, a leader who represents credibilty, is found to be living a life that is, by the Way's own standards, one of Devil spirit influence

I can remember hearing in formal presentations(ie: taped classes, Advanced Class, etc.) that The Word is multi-leveled in its connotations. This was used as part of illustrating the meaning of Hebrews 5:12-14 where the comparison is made between "milk" for the unskilled babe and "meat" for those of full age who could discern both good and evil. There was much encouragement to go beyond the "milk" and seek the "meat" of the Word. There was also a feeling of smuggness( for lack of a better word) when one felt that they saw a "deeper" meaning in a section of scripture. After all, who wanted to think of themself as a " babe" in the Word when others around them seemed to be growing up? This was especially true,IMO, in dealing with scripture that related to adultery. When one heard VPW ( or any one of a number of other high level personnel) teach that the greater meaning of adultery was of a spiritual nature(and it WAS taught that way quite often) it gave the hearer a feeling of having reached some new level of spiritual understanding. This feeling of having some inside track on spiritual matters is where the gist of the issue lies not just relating to adultery but any number of other topics. VPW went even further with this concept and used it to drive home the point that (according to him) the Trinity was actually spiritual idolatry (and spiritual adultery) and accepting it as so was a sign of spiritual growth. Again, who didn't want to feel like their spiritual understanding was being enlarged? As to children in CF&S, I saw many under-aged students in this class, including a family member. In today's society, there are many who would look on that sort of particpation as child endangerment and felonious.

Captain Spiritual I think I can understand some of the frustration you are experiencing. It can be difficult to find out that someone you respected has betrayed your trust. There is so much information here at GSC, it is hard to know where to start. One thing that I DON'T recommend for a new poster to do, is to jump to the forums without first examining some of the background information. There is a welcoming section, a 101 type section, etc. There are some very enlightening editorial sections here, as well. Have you looked at the "actual error" and "doctrinal error" editorials? There is also a good deal of information regarding the blatent plagerism that constituted VPW's works. It can be a time consuming task to look at some of this background information but I think if you do so, it will help you understand why some things you see here may seem, at first glance, to be unwarranted. Perhaps someone who has a better understanding of how to navigate this site can give some focus to your exploration. It is my hope that some of the brutal realities you encounter here don't chase you away. Waysider

I was never there but my brother KJ was there the first year or two. He has some wild stories he could tell that are more about being kids in a far away place than anything else. He doesn't post here because he doesn't have easy access to a computer. I have to wonder how many others there are out there who would frequent this place if they had a way to get here.

That's one sweet resonator! OH,YEAH! Kathy------Do you have to wear biker leathers when you play that or only when you tune it? :)

Geeze---Chas---------. Don't you remember when VPW thumbed his nose at organized religion's missionary programs because they had committees that actually took an academic approach to deciding where missionaries should be sent? According to VP, he made these decisions based on revelation that was given directly by God and ignored what his mind might tell him was a logical choice. I heard him teach various paramutations of this approach on many occasions.(mostly on SNS or class tapes) He probably just had a dart board he tossed darts at but God told him WHERE to toss the darts, "dontchaknow?"

Chas.------MIDI stands for M.usical I.nstrument D.igital I.nterface. Wikipedia has a bunch of stuff on it. Belle--------Are you referrring to the stringed instrument called a harp or the wind instrument, harmonica, which is often referred to as a harp?

OK-----Here is what I remembr from the CF&S class.(circa:1973 to 1975) VPW taught that the original sin was not only masturbation, but the physical consumption of the byproduct. (Thus, the "eating of the tree of life".) I saw this segment so many times, I can still see him swiping his two middle fingers on his right hand across the relevant anatomical area and raising them to his mouth whereupon he feigned a "lick" and looked straight at the camera with a smirk on his face. I'm not trying to evoke shock value. I am simply stating what I remembr just as clearly as if it had happened yesterday. He did not teach that this had any homosexual implications. As to the homosexual aspect: In the Advanced Class (1973), VP stated on page 19 of the syllabus, in section e.(2), that a born again saved believer may become afflicted with evil spirits. The spirits may affect or posses mind and/ or body, but not the spirit. ( it just occurred to me as I typed this that VPW was adamant about calling devil spirits "devil spirits" and not demons or evil spirits. This whole page defies his typical vocabulary.) On page 21 he lists 19 examples of spirits affecting the mind. Example #15 is Lesbian spirit and #16 is Homosexual spirit as well as example #9 which is Sadistic spirit( Sexual maniac / hurtful to other people) Now, does this prove whether this person or that is homosexual?-----NO. It does illustrate quite clearly,though, that TWI took a very defined stance on the subject being discussed as early as the 1970's.

"Occasional listening of the old tapes"/"There are lots of goodies there." You may have stumbled on something here. The next time you notice one of these "goodies", do a little exploration and see if you can find one of these "goodies" in non-TWI sources. It shouldn't be too hard with everything that has been posted here on GSC. After you do so, re-examine the gist of this thread which is that VPW highjacked the works of others and claimed them for his own. He even went a step further and claimed , in some instances, that God gave these exclusively to him. You see, it's not about whether some of these concepts were valid or not, it's about determining origin and misrepresenting sources of information and using that information to fulfil personal agendas. BTW-- Did you read my post on "context"? What was taught from the pulpit and heard by the rank and file did not always parallel what was taught within the context of living some of TWI "leadership" programs.

Not that it counts for anything, but Lone Wolf's post was "Down Under" by Men At Work Now pleases excuse me while I go and make myself a vegga--------veega------vooga-------- Heck with it. I'll have a ham on rye( with a pickle slice, please)

14,ooo to 1 closing ratio-----Hmmmmm--------not even that, since he split after the class. Not a personal reflection on you Bolski, but I think their current promotional campaign may be -------ummm----FLAWED! Lone Wolf I think I might understand partly how you feel. Even though I had not attended a twig in years (and did not know about most of what went on after I stopped going), I still felt like I was part of TWI somehow. That is, of course, until some of this stuff started to unfold before me as I searched for a replacement for my PFAL book. Life sure can take some unexpected twists and turns.( and that's not always a bad thing.)

I saw a brief mention of Iris DeMent, one of my very favorite real deal country style singers . On her album, "My Life", she does an amazingly powerful cover of the Mother Maybelle Carter tune, "Troublesome Waters". My technical abilities are a bit limited so I will post some of the lyrics. When troublesome waters are rollin' so high I lift up my voice and to heaven I cry Lord I am trustin', give guidance to me And steady my boat on life's troubled sea Then gently I'm feelin'the touch of his hand Guiding my boat in safely to land Leading the way to heaven's bright shore Where troublesome waters I'm fearing no more.

Bolshevik I understand your confusion with the law of believing as it was presented in the early days of TWI. Simply stated, it was being able to" think" things into or out of existence. This was the whole premise behind the "lift list". 1. Determine if it's available. 2. Get your needs and wants parallel with each other. 3. Picture as clearly as you can what you are "lifting". 4. Speak in tongues. It's rubbish. I don't say this to discredit prayer or positive attitude or even speaking in tongues, for that matter. I say this because it simply is not true that by merely thinking or picturing something you can control whether it exists (or transpires) or does not exist. It's the same kind of thinking that a fourth grader employs when they try to levitate a table with "mind power". If anyone has used this method to levitate a table recently, please post your experience here so the whole concept can be reexamined.

Re: separate the fish from the bones. Remember that place in PFAL where VP is teaching about context? He says you can even take things out of context to prove "There is no God". Well, that is ,in fact, what the scripture says. Of course, we also remember that he went on to show that in context it said,"The fool hath said in his heart there is no God." I believe that in order for something to fit with the context, it must be understood in a larger sense than verse, chapter, book, or even the whole Bible. It has to be understood in relation to life itself in a moment to moment sense. One of the advantages of having spent time in a program that required spending an inordinate amount of time with other believers, was that the context of the big picture became more than a class or twig meeting and, in fact, became a situation that required participants to be "on stage" 24/7. I don't think people who were not in some of these programs such as WC or Way Home or HQ Staff or Fellowlaborers, etc. really understand how much the lifestyle itself impacted the participants. You couldn't just take a class session and go back home. You were home. You didn't discuss it . You didn't question it. You didn't vocalize any disagreement with leadership. You just ate the whole blasted fish, bones and all and didn't dare to say the taste was foul.

Hey there, PB Here're a couple that are not really sing-a-long but involve audience participation. The first one is "Rocky Top". There is a line in it that goes "trapped like a duck in a pen" to which the audience loudly responds "QUACK,QUACK". Maybe it's a local thing here but the bands usually "prime" the crowd. The other one is "Mojo Workin" When it gets to the chorus and the singer says" Got my mojo workin", the audience responds each time. I went to a blues festival with a buddy of mine a few years ago and when the song was played(Sam Lay, if I remember right) we jumped up and shouted the response parts. Little did we know that the audience was mostly newbies and we were pretty much the only ones responding. It made it all the more fun.

Now, Now Mister P-Mosh------- I believe you may be exagerating a bit. We all know it was only 64.62%. Dead on about the boll weevils, though.

Was it dechomi and lambano? Too long ago. Maybe it would have been easier to just go through and mark a bunch of that stuff "PI".