waysider

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGE_Fd9B6-4

Through The looking Glass You asked that I clarify my point regarding Fred Brito. On another thread,"All the women-----", someone suggested that perhaps VPW may not have believed all that he expounded from the podium.(my paraphrasing) Someone else responded with this quote," Are you suggesting that somebody can teach something so specific, so faithful for so long, so positive and exalting of Jesus Christ, and not really believe it himself? Preposterous." Fred Brito has been doing that very thing since about 1970. He impersonated city officials, PhD's, medical experts, professional fund raisers and,yes, even a Catholic priest,(a man of the cloth) with a great deal of success and belief on the part of those he was deceiving. All the while he himself was fully aware he was living a falsehood. One common thread that appeared in the testimony of those he had duped was that most of them said something like"Gee, he did so many good things,too." Now where have I heard that before? As to the funeral: We can only know the facts surrounding the event, such as who invited him, how he got there, etc. We can only speculate on what was in his heart and mind at the time. Maybe he had gotten to a point in his life where he was able to forgive VPW.(He was about 80 at the time). Maybe he thought it was good PR for his own ministry. Or maybe he was just a classy guy who was willing to forsake his own ego to further a cause he really believed in. I don't know if any of those examples explains it nor can anyone else for certain unless they have some inside information that originated with BG himself.

Roy Nothing to add. Just wanted to say Holy hugs, Bro

Hiya, Mag Twin Plagerism really is quite a serious issue, especially when it is done to deceive God's people. I encourage you to spend a bit of time looking at some of the info that is available here for newcomers. If nothing else, step over to "The Reading Room" and play a little "Name That Tune" with us. Welcome to GSC!!

Did B.G. attend VP's funeral? Did they have a personal relationship? Did B.G.mind having his work plagiarized? These are all moot questions and do not for a moment negate or justify what VP did. He lied about getting his information directly from God. (He stated that he tossed all extraneous materials when he began his search. Obviously a falsehood.) He lied about having information that was unknown to anyone but himself. (Again, an obvious falsehood) This evening I watched an airing of Dateline, the TV show. The subject of the show was how a con man named Fred Brito assumed multiple identities and won over the trust of numerous people in the process. When interviewed, people who were unaware of his deception spoke glowingly of what a benevolent man he was. They were shocked to discover otherwise. Still, that does not alter the cold, hard fact that the man deceived and conned countless people for the last three decades. A quick visit to BG Leonard's web site(ctcoftexas.com) will display the forward to his book "Gifts of The Spirit". Allowing for some obvious paraphrasing, the gist of the forward may sound hauntingly familiar to anyone who has sat through PFAL. I guess we could speculate on whether or not BG and VPW wore the same shoe size but it only draws attention away from the real issue at hand,VPW abscounded BG's work and claimed it was his own. Through The Looking Glass----------- I hope that did not sound like an attack on you personally. That was not at all my intent and I apologize if it came across that way.

----------- -----------

Capt. S. That whole scenario about God teaching Wierwille The Word like it hadn't been known for 2,000 years is a lengthy and disheartening path to explore. He took these "new" truths ( in some cases "word for word") from the likes of B.G. Leonard, Stiles,Bullinger,etc.,etc. The PFAL class, the Holy Spirit book, the figures of speech study,even the characters of Maggie Muggins and Henry Bulloco were "lifted" from the works of others who came before him. Hence, "Like it hadn't been known" was an outright fabrication. There is a ton of information here related to that very subject. I am not very proficient at helping someone navigate this site. If there is something in particular you would like to find, I'm sure you only need ask directions. Waysider

Hang in there, George, I know the answer will come to you in due time.

Hiya, Preacher Please fasten your seatbelt, the ride is about to start. Glad you're here. Whoops! here comes some turbulance, hold on tight.

Ahhhhh! What would YOU know about makin' a "Joyful Noise" anyhow? :biglaugh: Just funnin' with ya, Socks!!! :)

Ummmm.--------- Capt. S. I noticed in your last post you used the phrase"Mark and Avoid". Any insight on where you picked up that catchy phrase? Just curious. Peace out, Waysider

Don't you know the people were dancin' like they were mad? It was the swingin'est band they had ever had It was the swingin'est song that could ever be It was a night with Daddy G. Let me tell you now I never had it so good Yeah, and I know you never could Until you get hip with that jive And take a band like The Church Street Five. (The cover is plenty good enough but I would really like the original if possible.)

He Ain't Heavy, He's my Brother-------------The Hollies I'm not sure if the title is exactly correct. OK----- Here's part of the trivia about it. In the 1940s, Father Flannagan(The Boy's Town guy) contacted the people at Kiwanis Magazine and asked them for permission to use a variation of this phrase he had seen in their publication in the 1920s. They granted permission and it became the slogan for Boy's Town. Added trivia:(Might want to verify this one) Someone told me that Elton John played the piano part on the record.

Good stuff. T-Bone.

Well, I'm from the olden days of TWI so the "grease spot analogy" was not used at that time. We were told, though, that once you knew "The Truth", you could never go back to what your life was before TWI. To do so was to venture outside the fortress walls of God's protection. Once outside, the Devil would be waiting for you to keep you from telling anyone else about "The Truth". He would stop at nothing to keep you silent. I guess it was kind of like having your "spiritual cherry" broken. Forgive me if that sounds crude but that kind of illustrates it for me. It reminds me a little of that old Janis Ian song where she sings" You can never go home anymore". Tithing was the big thing for me. We were conditioned to believe that tithing was a life- line to God's protection. Without it we were wide open to "attack". After I stopped going to twig, it really took some mental adjustment on my part to understand God was not going to sell me down the river because I no longer had a place to send my ABS(Abundant Sharing). So, the terminology changed over time, but the basic concept that was taught was virtually the same.

Captain S. You asked: "Did VPW speak out against the Jews?" You bettcha! The Advanced Class in 1973 was taught live at International HQ and had 200 to 250 students in attendance. I am using this to illustrate because, being live, it was not subject to editing. There are probably others here at GSC who were there as well. At this class, he did a lengthy presentation illustrating that he knew the Jews of modern day are not the same Jews of the Bible. He scoffed at the State of Israel(modern day) and said that when God calls Israel back to unity "He will not use Jumbo Jets".(his words) He called the modern state of Israel a fraud and a deliberate trick of the adversary(ie: the Devil) He laughed at the Holocaust and said it was all a fabrication(a lie) He went on to recommend we all read "The Myth Of The 6 Million" and "The Thirteenth Tribe". These two books are designed to deny the Holocaust and the Jewish people. Would you really not read these books when the MOG just endorsed them? He also stated that God had given up on Israel as a chosen people and that we, the "true believers" were actually God's chosen ones in this day and time. There's lots more but that's at least my 2 cents.

Dot You touched on some very interesting points there(IMO) First, based on your recounting of the event, you did not solicite God to give you revelation. He just dropped it unexpectedly into your lap. Even after you saw it, you did not realize what it was you were seeing until after the fact. Do you see where I'm going with this? He gives it where and when He deems appropriate. TWI had it backwards. They had US telling GOD when and where.For many people there may never be a "where and when." And that's OK! It doesn't matter because it's not our choice in the first place. It's only our choice how we react to it and respond. Second, when it happened, it was as large as life, not one of those deals where you think"Was it or wasn't it?" or "Gee, did God show me that parking space was open?" The same guy who told us it would come as a small, still voice also told us all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king. Where is his credibility now? Only God can determine if it will be a small, still voice or a guy shaking with the heebie jeebies or some guy you know almost nothing about being depicted in a vivid mental picture as someone who is grinning devilishly and displaying the "Hey!, here's my I.Q." symbol. Wierwille said"Just reach up in the cookie jar and see if there is anything there." In my opinion, if God has a cookie for you it will plop down on the table right there in front of you before you even think about being hungry. God not only determines where and when, He also determines how, even if He has to burn some shrubbery in the process. Remember that old TV show Candid Camera? The opening line to the theme song was"When you least expect it, you're elected..." Well------ that's just my opinion.

This message brought to you by The National Council of Weasel Growers. "Weasel, The other green meat."

(Or Thelma Lou, for that matter.)

OK----Now tell us about the "weird" dream. :blink:

"Did other people share their concerns with you?" That was forbidden or at least dismissed as an attack of the adversary. I realize this might not have been so pronounced at the local twig level, but, as one moved upward into positions of increased responsibility it took on greater importance. In session #7 of the PFAL class, the stage was set for this practise. It was there that VPW expounded on the multi-step process the Devil used to trick Eve. Let me see if I remember correctly. First she "listened" and next she "considered". The subsequent steps were inevitable and led to certain downfall. Surely no one would want to follow her tragic example now would they? Bottom line: Keep any concerns you have to yourself or risk being exposed as the "bad apple". Remember now, this teaching originated well before the time of LCM. He was nothing more than an example of what these seeds of mind control can grow into if cultivated and regerminated over and over. "Military technique----What form?" Well, we once had a weekend "lockdown" in Fellowlaborers that was designed to break your spirit of individuality via a boot camp like tear down session complete with screaming and public degradation. One person actually "snapped". They considered her outcome a SUCCESS! Of course, in the military, the next step is to build you back up. They seemed to have missed that point. And there was plenty of isolationism and sleep deprivation. Sound military enough? Imagine being hauled out of your bed at 2AM and being told to report to a location 30 minutes away within the next 20 minutes.Impossible, of course, but at least you gave it a try. Once there, you are informed you have failed to meet a directive and the entire program you had sold out to has been cancelled because you(as a group) are failures. But wait there's more. Next morning at sunrise you are informed you are being given another chance. Don't blow it. I could go on but I think you get the gist of it. Again, this was during VPW's time but it certainly didn't stop when he died. edited for spelling

Once when my new bride of a month or so and I were on house cleaning detail, we decided it might not be such a bad idea to clean our own room.(Nudge,nudge--Wink,wink) No, we were'nt caught but our absence from the herd did not go unnoticed. I was summoned to appear before the limb leader, who was a half hours' drive away with no explaination of what I was being called in for. I really did not have a clue what he was calling me in for. She was not summoned, only me. Oh, yeah,Clergy. That was Rev. J!m M!lne. As he pesented his case to me about how the adversary was using "it" as a trick to let my guard down, I began to do some serious thinking about how he seemed quite fond of the new Mrs.(I better not take that thought any further here).Well, we were part of that "any 2 can make it work" deal who just couldn't make it work.But the thing that strikes me is how they had to control even the most private of moments and always try to make you think you were the one who was missing some big spiritual truth.

(or is it?) I dig the Bradbury quote at the end of your post. That is one of the few movies I thought surpassed the impact of the book.(And I used to read LOTS of Ray B.) The parallel (of the story to TWI) is so uncanny it boggles the mind. To those who have not seen it-----------RENT THE MOVIE!!!

This was NOT unique to LCM. I saw the same "goon" technique used during the reign of VPW.(1978 or 1979) A particular believer who lived hundreds of miles from Int. HQ, spoke out against some things he had experienced while outside his local area. Within days, there were "goons" at his front door informing him( matter of factlly) that "bad" things could happen to him if he continued to speak out against what he saw.( Not "spiritual" things, if you get my drift.) It was not an open discussion. He got the message and stopped speaking out. I didn't know what to make of it at the time but this person was someone I knew very well and not prone to fabrication or exageration by any stretch of the imagination. It confused me greatly. I haven't talked to this person in decades. Geography has a way of helping people drift apart.(especially in the pre- internet era.)

I agree. But, at the same time, I think there is room for yet a third category, those who were "once bitten twice shy". I think this is where the concept of "spiritual rape" enters the mix. These are people who really want a relationship with God but are conditioned to avoid it based on previously unpleasant experiences. Just my opinion ----- I could be wrong.