waysider

Groucho Excellent analogy comparing the TWI spiritual scam to a real estate scam to contrast the scope of damage done. Although I don't get too wrapped up in discussing the sex scandals, I think there is a similarity there as well. It's not just about Joe believer and Betty Lou believer having an affair. That stuff happens everywhere, not just TWI. It's about someone abusing a position of trust and respect to satisfy their own personal agenda and doing it in God's name. The damage done goes far beyond the scope of what is immediately recognizable. I'm not sure what that has to do with"black and white" thinking other than to illustrate that rationalization played a big part in some of the justifications that were used to explain actions in TWI.

Poodle---It's what's for dinner.

Well------------ There WAS an awful lot of "begettin'" going on in Genesis, don't ya think? :D

WTH I'm pickin'up what your puttin' down, but let's be honest here-----The PFAL class was not written in Greek! Kapeesh?

I forgot to mention that the piece is called "The Messiah Will Come Again". The words he mummbles at the beginning are an integral part of the piece.

Ha! Knew I had it somewhere. It was in my AC notes. During the Advanced Class, VPW taught that in the Old Testament, God talked to His people through dreams because spirit was on, not in them. He said ( I'm paraphrasing my notes) that since the Day Of Pentecost, God only talks to his people via spirit within and dreams are no longer a valid way for God to speak to his children unless they had gotten so far out of fellowship that they could not recognize revelation.(or if they were not yet born again) Now honestly, given the foregone conclusion, who would want to admit they had experienced a dream? The notes go on to talk about the trap door, etc. and how daydreaming allows the renewed mind to let down its guard, thus unlocking the trap door for devil spirit influence. Sounds alot like "don't even consider" don't you think?

Thanks, Socks,Paul was about 20 years old on that one!!Here's some Roy B.

Kinda reminds me of that scripture where the begger continues to stay firmly planted on his behind and call out" There's a lion in the street" rather than take some affirmative action to warn others or somehow help to minimize the problem. If they don't think your house is up to snuff, perhaps they could stop hollering"there's a lion in the street" long enough to lend a helping hand. Just a thought.

I just found out that there is a new, live CD by the Paul deLay band. Paul passed away about a month ago. He was a master of the chromatic harp. He was once quoted as saying."This is one cat who ain't afraid to push the button.", a reference to playing beyond the standard "3rd position". Funny Paul D. story: In about 2000 or 2001, I learned that Paul had released a CD titled "Heavy Rotation". The promos said that if you ordered directly from him, he would send you an autographed copy at no extra charge. A buddy of mine is a big fan so I ordered two copies, one for me and one for him. At about 11pm my phone rings. I'm about 2 or 3 time zones east of Paul's home base in Portland, Oregon. Half asleep, I answered the phone and heard a voice say, "This is Peter Dammonn, Paul's guitarist. Paul is out on a solo tour right now but I just got your order for two copies of our latest CD. Would it be OK if I wait for him to get back and sign them before I ship them out?" It was, of course, more than OK. A week or so later , the CDs arrived with a huge gel-pen signature. Can you imagine someone like K. Richards calling you at home to tell you Mick was out solo and asking if it was OK to wait for an autograph? Ain't gonna happen, kids. I have not heard this CD yet. I'm going to go out on a limb and endorse it anyway. Paul never did anything halfarsed and I would be flabbergasted to find this to be the exception. You can find it at pauldelay.com. Did that sound too much like an advertisement? :)

Corps Puss L. PFAL--mnop. Advanced Class Action Suit. American Idol Worship Dancing with the scars Hey! You look familia!

No idea on the latest post. Sounds vaguely familiar. But, Wasway, no good band efforts since DD? Check out "Ocean of Tears" or "Nice and Strong" from The Paul DeLay Band. Not new, by any stretch, but much newer than DD and both solid "band" efforts. Point is--- music no longer comes looking for YOU, you have to go looking for IT. Lots of great stuff out there right now but most of it is not mainstream.

And don't forget: One must never consider.(ie:employ deductive reasoning) Eve did that, and look what happened to her. TWI doctrine got a whole lot easier to accept after session #7.

JavaJane RE: Your dream question Yes, I also heard these things in the 1970s. It supposedly meant you had your spiritual trap door open. I don't recall where I heard it, precisely, but I suspect it was one of those types of things that just seemed to "make the rounds" in TWI.

I don't think I know it but I do like the lyric.

This is a bit off topic.( The milk reminded me) There is an episode of The Little Rascals that takes place in a poverty stricken, depression era orphanage. The kids accidentally spill the only milk they have. They know the headmaster will punish them if he finds out. Thus, they decide to mix up some plaster- of- paris and water into the consistancy of milk. When they sit down at the table, there is nothing to eat except mush and "milk". One kid leans over and whispers to the next, "Don't drink the milk". "Why?", says kid #2. "It's spoiled." says the first. This goes all the way around the table until it reaches the headmaster who scoffs at the notion and takes a big gulp. He instantly spews the "milk" back out involuntarily. Don't drink the milk-----------It's spoiled!

How about Moment@s? Would that qualify as a usurption? I don't know what our class was called, but it pretty much fit the description of Moment@s We were subjected to a weekend of "reshaping" that took place in a LOCKED building. A locked-down building strikes me as more than infringement. We were shouted down and belittled at the very mention of the phrase "I think". "YOU DON"T THINK! YOU KNOW AND OBEY!" I remember that phrase quite well because it was directed to me, personally, more than once that weekend. Our choices and actions were commandeered that weekend. If that's infringement, it is an extreme form. And no, the agreement we made before going into the program did not make any mention of such "instruction". As I stated earlier, we were ORDERED to report to limb HQ in the middle of the night, on one occasion, and when we got there had to sit in complete silence in the dark only to then be told the program was being scrapped. Then it was reinstated only hours later but only if we fell in step without question. Again, if this is infringement, it certainly is an extreme form. Still, I did complete the program and graduate. I have a really swell green and white nametag to show for it. It's got a super cool Bible/Way tree/ Word over the world logo on it.--------Yee Haw!!

Oldies While I see your point about accepting what one agreed to, the point that is being lost is that sometimes these programs were not accurately represented in the recruitment process. It really doesn't matter how thoroughly one considered the commitment before entering, if the information was flawed to start with, one really had no idea how abherent the program would become in comparision to its promotion and promises. I think the generally accepted term for this kind of activity is "false advertising". A couple more quick points: Not everyone who left did so because they failed. Some were cast aside in a moments notice and no reason was ever given nor were we allowed to ask the reason why. There was one particularly cruel incident in which the ENTIRE PROGRAM was collectively dismissed at 2 or 3 in the morning, no specific reason given. At 5:30 the next morning we were told we were "allowed" to continue but only if we did exactly as we were told. I was not one of the ones who were thrown out nor did I quit. As I stated in my post, I graduated. Point #2: "Why did we keep coming back?" We didn't keep coming back------ we LIVED there, in a commune, isolated from general society.No phones, no TV. Our only connection to normal people was when we went to our secular jobs which we were to use as a means to witness so we could turn their names over to the local branches. If one had a job that was not conducive to that, they had to find another job. Pretty hard to strike up a conversation that doesn't somehow allude to a lifestyle you live 24/7--365 and then direct it to something unrelated. Our freewill was most certainly usurped. Was there anything good there? Sure. I learned I can tolerate a whole lot more horse cr@p than I had ever previously imagined. That, and I learned how to sprout mung beans and make my own mayonaise. I'll bet those cats in Acts never knew how to do either. Of course I can't really be certain because we never got around to that in-depth study of Acts that was promised.

Hmmm. Let's see. "Saturday In The Park"------------Chicago :)

Eyesopen I feel like your posts echoes much of my sentiment, especially the part about "shame" which I will address in a moment. I was never in the corps. I did graduate from Fellowlaborers, though, which was another program that promised to deliver a specific product in exchange for commitment. Fellowlaborers was a two year, in rez., communal living program located within a 1/2 hr. drive from limb HQ. The program, as it was presented to me, was supposed to be an in-depth study of The Word(the two years I signed up for were supposed to be a study of The Book Of Acts) There were about 50 of us living 2 to a bedroom/ 6 to a townhouse. We started our days at 5:30 (unless you happened to be on a prep. detail such as breakfast, which we ate as "house" units. Then it started earlier.) We worked 9-5 secular jobs and then met as a branch at limb HQ where we ate at "house" tables and then worked at limb every evening. After that, we met back at the "houses" for nite fellowship and house duties such as dishes and cleaning. Before you knew it, midnight had arrived and it was "lights out" and there was to be no talking, even with your roommate. It surely didn't leave any time to study the Word. What little time you did have, was consumed with taking care of personal needs.We couldn't date outside the group, socialize outside the group or even venture very far away from the complex other than for our secular jobs, which , of course, everyone knew were meant to be an avenue to witness. What was presented to me was that , at the end of the two years, you would take all this in depth knowledge back to your hometown. Most of us had already burned all the bridges that led to a support system by estranging our "natural" friends and family. Some of us went into the program as representatives of their areas. People who could not go WOW or Corps or Fellowlaborer for various reasons looked to us for representation much like the first family member to make it to college. Here's where the shame comes in. How could you go home(early) and tell them you had let them down or that perhaps there was something not right with this ministry you had all immersed yourselves in? After all, you had no proof, only suspicions. There were people tossed out in the middle of the night for infractions and told to get out of the state before daybreak. How much shame do you think they must have felt as they traveled to and arrived back home?(100's/ some 1,000's of miles away) Just the thought of being humiliated in a like manner was a pretty strong motivator to tow the line and conform as a method of survival. There are lots of ways to usurp a person's free will that have little to nothing to do with placing a gun to their head. Now, as to being "conned": I don't recall anyone saying they thought the con was committed by Jesus Christ. The "con" was committed by an organization. In order to accept that, you first have to acknowledge that a "con" was, in fact" committed. edited to reflect that I was responding to a post by Eyesopen, not Listener as I originally thought.

Free Is there a way to block PMs? Just askin'. Whatever you decide , I just want to say I have benefitted from your input here. And-----------HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY!! Your kids don't know how fortunate they are to have you as a Mom.

Dog meat is a common menu item in South Korea. People raise them on farms as a type of livestock like chickens or hogs. (Though conditions are not regulated as they are in the USA) People in India find it appalling that we eat cows. Hmmm!----Don't have to even travel all the way to India to find those who share that sentiment.

"When your mother asks,'Do you want a piece of advice'?, It is a mere formality. It doesn't matter if you answer yes or no. You're going to get it anyway." Erma Bombeck 1927--1996 Happy Mother's Day

You know you're in TWI If you're reading this "on the sly". (Wouldn't want anyone to know you're hangin' out with debul spurts, dontcha know.)

Spider Murphy played the tenor saxophone Little Joe was blowin' on the slide trombone

I'm sure there must be plenty left. They have been selling off assets left and right for several years now and I have never gotten a rebate on my Abundant Sharing(tithes). As to the lawsuit, what other information did you discover?