waysider

Remember the teaching VPW did about a preacher who worked on his sermon all week and kept the notes in his desk drawer? According to VP, the debuhl peeked at the notes at night and then turned the people's hearts against the Sunday sermon. ( I think this was in PFAL.) VP went on to say that's why he liked to "wing it" as he listened for God to tell him what to teach as he was teaching it. :blink: :asdf:

Actually, Mr. B., a "song" has words. What you have described is more technically a "piece of music". But what the heck, if it floats your boat, it's all good.

"Doctrine is a very, very small part of what makes a group a cult."-----Belle Amen to that!!

I think , to some extent, this controlling and micro-managing is a big part of why it can be so hard for some to "Just get over it and move on". It may also explain why some who remained at their local twigs and branches will insist they never saw any of these things. That's only logical. Much of this treatment was dealt out only in the so-called training programs. I mean, you can get past the doctrinal stuff like speaking in tongues or the trinity because those are things that lend themselves to discussion. This history of being controlled and micro-managed, however, is something that triggers an automatic response before you even know what hit you. The workplace can be one situation where you react almost instinctively to "control" and "directives" that mimic those experienced in TWI. It can make you overly submissive or overly defensive to similar treatment. It can spill into family life, also. That's why it's important to try to be cognizant of things that "push your button" and learn to deal with them logically. That's my opinion, anyway.

I always thought it was meant to suggest you should pledge your commitment to the organization, not to the organization's members, kinda like the old term "company man". To me, that definition seemed to make sense because we were convinced that there was no real "Word" outside of TWI's confines.

2 twigs= a branch?!!!!! Now that's one scrawney tree!

Oldies I read through the posted thread. I saw a discussion of the trinity but nowhere did I see anyone declare themself to be a trinitarian. And anyway, so what if they had? Does that automatically make them a "kook" or "extremist"? Does being a trinitarian invalidate anything else you might present? Think twice before you answer that last question. Bishop KC Pillai was a trinitarian. So was Bullinger. Are you prepared to label them as "kooks" and "extremists"? Was The Way a Satanic cult? I don't know. Neither do you. I do know, however, that they were/are a cult by the definition that is generally accepted by most of the non- TWI world. VPW once said that the "world" considered us a cult because we rejected the trinity. It is my suggestion that the "world" called us a cult because that's what we were. You have seen people recount experiences that just don't happen in Godly organizations. Would a Godly organization suggest that you STONE your children or toss them out of a moving car? I'm glad that your experience was not as extreme or damaging as some that have been posted here. That doesn't in any way justify what many here have had to endure. Please don't minimize the significance of others' experiences

Salute to the Armed Forces

annam I did not really understand the essense of your most recent post. Could you expand on what you mean by having a defence for the offense? People have been commenting on the fallout that ensued due to Wierwille's appointment of Martindale. (for the sake of brevity, we often resort to abbreviations such as VPW for Wierwille or LCM for Martindale or WOW for Word Over The World Ambassadors.) It's too labor intensive to keep using full names and terms when so many understand the meaning.) Your opinion on how this event affected The Way International(TWI) is just as much welcomed here as anyone elses. That doesn't mean, of course, that all will agree or disagree with you. So, with that in mind, how do you feel about the above mentioned event? Mistake? Not a Mistake? Don't care either way? None of the above.

Don't know if anyone remembers the manual we had to follow when we ran large meetings such as branch or area. It was jam packed full of do's and don't's such as when to start the coffee brewing, how long singing should be, etc. One of the items on the "don't" list was "pick your seat". Well, I'm pretty sure it meant you should sit where you could avail yourself and not with your buddies, but it was poorly written and quite ambiguous. We always got a big chuckle when we went over our check list and made sure to ask if any crew members had "picked their seats". Therefore, proper ANTI protocol dictates that one must "pick his/her seat" at every large function.

I'll just have to trust you on that.

"Song Of Hope"

Glass Harp w/ Phil Keaggy------"Changes"

Ah yes, Mr Miller Membership in an organization vs. lifestyle. Very good point. I don't personally know any Catholics, Baptists, etc. who lived a communal lifestyle based on their religious beliefs.(except the Priesthood) I suppose there could have been some, but not that has crossed my radar. I work with someone who was in a cult similar to TWI.(but much smaller) They do not have a web site. They do, however, email each other and get together for lunches, etc. I don't really view that as being any different, in essence, to having a web site like GSC. It's people with a common bond interacting with each other.In our case, though, the common bond included a very regimented lifestyle that you won't find on, let's say, a banjo pickers forum.

Annam If you really think people only come here to rehash the past and hold onto bitterness, then I suggest you take a closer look. Shop around a little. There're games, music, doctrinal discussions, silly jokes, movie trivia, etc. Why do we talk about the past? Well, partly because that's the common thread that is woven through the fabric of our lives. You are correct in saying there is sometimes bitterness here. That's how life is, a mixed bag of bitter and sweet. The great thing about The Cafe is that you can come and go as you please. Glad you stopped in. Hope you'll come back and visit again. Peace Waysider

"POP"= "Passing of a Patriarch", Chris Geer's lengthy description of his days spent with VPW as death knocked on his door. You can read it in its entirety here at the GSC. It's usually a good thing to read the many articles and documents available here before getting too overly consumed by the forums. Of course, the longer you have been "gone", the more catching up there is to do. Personally, I spent my first month or so here just reading some of these articles and info. before even posting for my first time. If there is a particular topic you would like to explore in a non- forum format, just ask someone for directions. Hope that answers your question.

LNM Have you considered posting in "My Story"? Long and complicated stories are welcomed there. (Plus, sometimes newcomers get a free coffee and Danish!)

It just occurred to me that when I posted my musical analogy, I neglected to mention that a very large part of being about to improvise effectively is developing an ability to listen to what the others are playing without focusing on ones self.

Geeze. I don't get it. According to VP, we were ALL a bunch of "Keeeeds".

Ya see, here's the thing, Mr. Moore, You question why others did not stand up to leaders when they saw things they deemed to be wrong. Yet, in your letter of departure, it is clearly obvious that you, yourself, had difficulty with these types of "face to face" confrontations. I hope you don't take what I'm saying as a personal affront because I don't mean it that way. I'm just trying to point out that what seems, in hindsight, should have been obvious, is not always so simple in the here and now world we live in. Life is a whole lots more like a can of worms than a neatly organized tackle box!

Come now, Mr H., surely you're not suggesting that these "tapped in" individuals would have actually partaken of the fruits of your prankish nature. "Hevvy Revvy" would have sprung into fruition and exposed your dastardly plans. The shame of it all is almost too much to fathom!

I remember the stuff about a devil spirit named Jesus, also. I don't recall where it was taught. It might have been in the Advanced Class as it seems to fit the profile for subject matter. The "Lord God Almighty" thing. Tain't nuttin' complicated about it. VP just flat out screwed up that part of the session. That's why we were TOLD to gloss over it and (as the current expression goes), put a spin on it. I wish you could see this in the original!(class instructors manual, that is. )

Good Golly! I know I'm getting forgetful in my antiquity, but doesn't that playround, merry-go-round, chain link fence stuff sound like it came right out of James Dobson's "Dare To Discipline"? Ya know, there is an approach to musical improvisation that I like to call "riff playing". It involves learning a bunch of patented riffs and regurgitating them at places one feels appropriate. It usually sounds pretty good to the casual listener. Another approach is to "hear" a phrase in your thinking and then repeat that on your instrument of choice. This method is similar to what happens in vocal conversation. Sometimes patented riffs will show up but they are not the focal point of the creative proccess. For me, at least, I have always found the "hearing" method to be more satisfying than "riff playing". It's often not as flashy and technically impressive but it always leaves me feeling like I expressed my true self.

johnj Good post. Thanks for that site reference. I'm going to look at that a bit later.