waysider

I physically left in about 1990. I did not get involved with any offshoot or splinter group. Actually, I lost track of what was going on inside the organization so I had no idea about the lawsuits, etc. But, still, some place in my mind I still felt like I was part of TWI in some abstract sense. I found this place by chance and it really opened my eyes to a lot of things I had suspected over the years but never really had any proof. I realized I no longer had to feel guilty that I had somehow copped out on the household or on God. In fact, when I realized I had been the victim of large scale scam(IMO), I felt a sense of relief that I had not failed God, I had simply left a cult. In my opinion, until one can accept that The Way was/is a cult, they can never be free from the strangle hold it puts on one's individuality and ability to think for one's self. The very fact that some people refuse to even consider they were conned is evidence in itself how effective the lesson in session #7 really was. That's the session where we are conditioned to believe that Eve's downfall was a direct result of her considering what the serpent had to say. The lesson went on to warn us that we must never "consider" either, lest the same thing happen to us. We were under mind control,(not the Hollywood movie kind where people walk around like zombies but the kind that prevents a person from exercising their sense of logic and reason.) Some still have not been able to recognize that in themselves. I think that, at least for myself, being away from TWi doctrine and its derivatives helped me to be able to think for myself without fear of being "off The Word".

Me too.

Surfin' Bird!!!!-------The Trashmen

:dance: :)

Rosestoyou I find I must agree with you on your comments regarding communes and socialism. A month or two ago, I started a thread on the Fellowlaborer program, which was a commune in the true academic sense. It didn't get much response, perhaps because the program was nowhere near as far reaching as some of the others. The aspect of communal living had a far greater and long lasting effect on me than any of the doctrinal material (such as *4 crucified* or *6 denials*) Sometimes people will mistakenly think that living together as a group is the same thing as a commune. It may well include that but it is larger in scope than that. I think for some WOWs(I was not one), the experience might have been like a group of people living together while for others, it might have been a form of communal living. This might explain why there is a diversity of opinions on the effects of the WOW program.

Johniam Here's a little suggestion for you, that might make your posts easier to read. When you see a post you want to quote, click on the quote/reply boxes at the bottom of that post. That will insert that post into yours. If you don't want the whole post, delete the sections you don't want and put *snip* on both sides of the section you have saved. That will put it into a "quote bubble" and the *snips* will show that you are *dividing* it out of the larger context. And yes, John, you are correct, there is a difference between having a *nature* and having a *lifestyle*. A person can, by nature, be an alcoholic but live a lifestyle free of alcohol. However, one does not live a lifestyle of alcoholism without being alcoholic by nature. In other words, a lifestyle is like a nature brought into manifestation. Wierwille manifested a lifestyle of alcoholism that was in his nature.

I wasn't led into it either. I wasn't even with anyone when I did it. In fact, I had only just heard about TWI and the PFAL class days before I spoke in tongues, Someone had said it was a way to express thankfulness to God and that was a big priority to me at that moment. Then, the next day or two I gave tongues with interpretation in a believers meeting( because the leader said, "Will someone----?") and drew some wild looks from the people present. It was a real *Kodak Moment*.

I just come here for the refreshments. (Keep that under your hat!!)

Here's one I heard Johnny Carson tell: ------------------------------------------- A woman at a party was approached by a gentleman who proceeded to strike up a conversation. After a bit , he asked her if she would ever consider having sex with him for a million dollars. She decided to play along and said,"For a million I would consider it." Next he asked her if she would consider it for HALF a million. Again she played along and responded that for half a million she might consider it. Then he asked her if she would consider it for a hundred bucks. Indignantly she replied, "A hundred bucks?!! What do you think I am?!! "Oh", he said, "I think we've already established what you are. Now we're just haggling over a price." -------------------------------------------------- But seriously, I think the part about having a wife was just a ruse to gain your trust. Say!!! Come to think of it, did he mention anything about his wife having had a botched surgery? <_<

johniam I really don't know what the pharisees "thought", though it's a pretty safe bet (based on scriptural accounts) that they probably had thoughts along those lines. The thing is, John, regardless of what the pharisees thought, Jesus did not "torture" doctrine. In sharp contrast, regardless of what anyone thinks, VeePee did "torture" doctrine. VeePee promoted a doctrine that, simply stated, attributed alcoholism and addiction to devil spirit possession. It's a well known fact that he taught this in the Advanced Class. And yet, John, he proceeded to live a lifestyle that was dominated by those very things he said were caused by devil spirits. So, either this doctrine is erroneous("tortured") or he, himself, actually hosted these spirits at the same time we were following his teachings. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, regarding your question about a Christian "juggling" two lifestyles: Of course they can, at the very least, in a mental sense. Otherwise there would be no mention of the renewed mind. Still, the "fruit" they bear will demonstrate how well they were able to juggle.

Whatta ya say we cruise down a different street in the same neighborhood? Dr. Wierwille taught that alcoholism is caused by a devil spirit called a "spirit of leviathan". This is documentable. So, here's that pesky dilemma, once again. We either followed a man who hosted at least one devil spirit(spirit of leviathan), or He was wrong about what causes alcoholism.(again, the credibility issue) Are there other options I'm not seeing here?

Dot Many years ago, one of my family members who was anti-God, anti-Bible, anti-religion, fell into a terminal, vegetative state. I'm quite certain he would have had no interest in trying to "believe" for deliverance. One day, my mother, a very wonderful twig leader, laid hands on him and prayed. He sat up like Rip Van Winkle and demanded to know what had happened and why he was in the hospital bed. My mother took a few minutes and explained to him what had happened and told him he should be thankful God had healed him. He became indignant and insisted that if it had anything to do with God, he DID NOT want it. He demanded God take back His gift. With that, he fell back into his previous state, where he remained for the rest of his life. What's my point? His "believing" had absolutely nothing to do with what took place. My mother went to God with a loving and open heart and God heard her request. I know that's just a personal anecdote but I think there is some sort of lesson in it.

Pecans?!!!!----Why, that's just nuts!!

Please hold your questions in abeyance until the end of this thread , at which time they will all be answered.

No y d a, a tall.

This is a blanket statement, not directed toward any particular person: It is difficult to fully understand and appreciate the depth of what Jesus accomplished as "The Christ" without first understanding who he was and what he endured as "a man". Just my 2 cents. Your coin purse doesn't have to resemble mine.

and a one and a two and a-------

In my opinion, this "believing" stuff is all out of wack. Or maybe I should say, "It's all wacky". Simply put, if you don't believe God can answer your prayer(s), you wouldn't go to Him in the first place. Sure, you believe the chair will hold you when you sit down, but your believing had nothing to do with the fact that it held you. Try to reverse it if you need to prove it. Tell yourself it's going to collapse when you sit in it and see if the results differ. This so called "law" of believing is contrived by the mind of Man,otherwise it would be dependent on our works. In other words, "if I work hard enough to bolster my believing, I will see results." is a bunch of nonsense.(IMO) God does not expect us to be some kind of "super stars of believing", He just expects us to bring our concerns to Him with a genuine and open heart. If you didn't believe He could help you, it's not likely you would do that. How does the fervent prayer of a righteous man avail much? The same way discussions with my family members adds depth to our relationships.

White Dove As you know, many times a thread will go off on an unrelated tangent and the essence of a previous post may be obscured in the process. This particular post of mine was in regard to a line of thinking that was being discussed about a page back. I should have referenced that before my post. The particular line of thought that was under discussion was whether devil spirits(according to the teachings of The Way) can possess just the body, just the mind, or both. The context of the of the material I referred to( as far as I recall after many, many years) illustrated how both can be involved at the same time and used alcoholism as an example of both being in play at the same time. I hope that clarifies my intent. I'm sorry I did not make that clearer. On the other hand, I do see you point about how even one single word can affect the overall essence or even change a meaning completely.

You are correct; Jesus did not tell me it was gobbledygook. He also didn't tell me it was a '48 Packard or a new way to do the boogaloo. Come to think of it, I don't think he really has a whole lot to say on the subject, one way or another. Look, Oldies, if you don't want Jesus (or a knowledge of his importance to modern Christianity) to be a part of your personal walk, it's really none of my business. That's between you and God. Did you ever stop to think that maybe God is saying to himself. "Criminy, why don't these wayfers just tell me what the heck they want instead of going through this ritual of jibberish?" Do you think He wouldn't understand you if you came to him and expressed your heart in your native language? Give it a try. How can it hurt you?

I'm not usually a Bible quoting kind of guy but here goes: ----------------------------------------------------------------- St. John 14:6 Jesus said unto him(Thomas), I am the way, the truth, and the life: No man comes to the Father except by me. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Doesn't exactly invite you to cut him out of the picture, now, does it? But, Wait!!! What about "the administration" and "to whom" and all that other stuff in PFAL? :wacko:

If it's necessary for you to know, I'm sure you could ask.

Q."How will I know which one of the two(God or Jesus) I'm addressing?" A. As long as they know (and I'm quite certain they do), why would that even matter?

I believe that fear of "communing with a devil spirit" had its origins in a premise that was being expounded throughout TWI in the early 1970s. The premise, generally stated, was that there was actually a devil spirit named Jesus and it was possible you were really talking to him. We were told (don't remember by whom) not to talk to Jesus for this reason. This has been discussed here at GSC previously. Geeze!--- It's amazing how bizarre this stuff all seems, in retrospect!

Adding to the "Did they really believe it?" thread. Here's some more debuhl spirt stuff from the AC class. (From my notes relating to Pgs. 20 and 21 for those who really MUST know.) Some of the spirits that affect the mind are, spirit of obsession(seen in people who can't control their temper),sordid spirit(uses filthy, foul language), spirit of oppression( has feelings of being persecuted), sensual spirit(has lust for money, sex and anything beyond needs) Spirit that may affect both body AND mind: (Drumroll, please)---------------spirit of leviathan(alcoholism and addiction.) Maybe this thread should be called "Did we really believe it?". <_<