waysider

The expression saints and sinners alike is simply a catch phrase that has been used for centuries to signify "all inclusive". It means the same thing as anyone and everyone. Surely if Wierwille was anywhere near as well read as he claimed to be, he must have encountered this phrase many times, especially since it is used in religious oriented writings more than secular writings.

My second or third year in Fellowlaborers, there was a guy who was a fan of Starsky and Hutch. His daytime job was in "the big city". One day, the two guys from the show were in town to make an appearance on the local news as a promo. At dinner, that night, he stood at announcements to say he had met them and began to relive the event. Everyone knew he was a jokester and clearly headed for some sort of funny punch-line but before he could deliver it, the limb leader cut him off and pumped him for verifiable proof. He had none, of course, because it was all part of a joke. The limb leader then proceeded to force him to apologize to all those present (50+) and submit himself to a public belittlement for deceiving "God's people". The next day, he and his wife were conspicuously absent from morning fellowship. They had been "tossed" from the program for his "lack of spiritual maturity". They(TWI) might have been good at serving millet 50 different ways, but they didn't know "jack" about good old fashioned practical jokes.

Hey Kids!!! Good News! It seems that recent developments have revealed that the whole "Way Cult" thing was actually an elaborate hoax. Yep, some prankster slipped some sort of psychedelic cosmic mold spores into our familia while we were preoccupied with putting big HS's and small hs's into our Bibles. The whole time we thought we were scrubbing toilets for Jesus and having BM's(ummm, that's short for Believer's Meetings.), we were actually sitting at the campfire, holding hands, making s'mores and singing Kumbaya. HaHa--- I drove by the old "HQ" property not long ago and discovered that it was never really there. There is nothing there but cornfields that have obviously been cultivated there for eons. Remember Tom Wolfe's Electric Acid Kool Aid Test? I guess what happened to us musta been kinda like the Psychedelic Cosmic Mold Spores Familia Test HeeHeeHee---I feel so silly in retrospect. Hmmmmm. I didn't really post this. (Or did I?)

Iris DeMentSweet Is The Melody

I wholeheartedly agree. That was a large part of the point I was trying to make. Admittedly, I should have made it clearer that the neighborhood I grew up in was not Jewish. In fact, many of these people I referred to were Eastern Orthodox and Russian Orthodox, not Jewish. Sorry I did not make that clearer.

Re: Sunesis' link referencing "The Bitch Of Buchenwald" I'm no expert on Jewish law, but it is my understanding that a Jewish person( at least at that period of time) would never voluntarily tattoo himself as it is a violation of Jewish law. This is why it was so disgraceful for a prisoner to have to be subjected to the "numbering" tattoos. They were like cattle bing branded, in the eyes of the camp administrators, but the severity of the issue was much deeper and complex for those being tattooed. The conclusion I deduce from this evidence is that these camps did not inter Jewish people only. Use that to adjust the numbers if it makes any difference. To me, it does not. Growing up, I knew kids whose parents and grandparents had spent time in these camps. And yes, I met many of them personally, though i can tell you they did NOT openly discuss what they had endured. Some had "abbreviated" families.( Is that a nice enough way to say they had lost family members?) Saying this part of history has been fabricated, is to say that my memories of childhood are all an illusion. That much, at least, I really can't buy.

Yep I remember all the hand gestures. I especially liked the part where "the lady was inside". That's the part where you rub your belly like you're full. If you closed your eyes and concentrated real hard, you could imagine that the bowl of "swill deluxe with flax seeds" you had just eaten, had satisfied your hunger just like the lady had done for the croc. 50 grown men and women singing kid's songs after dinner in the BRC. Wish I had a video of it. (except cam-corders hadn't been invented yet.) It would probably win hands down on that wackiest videos show.

More Gary with Nick Curran on guitar. Austin,TX.---3/2007

Tell him to be careful with the studio lights. Wierwille's already got the martyr thing covered.

I never knew it to be available to the general public. It was used for "Public Ex's". The video was directed by Bud Morgan from "Wide World Of Sports". Don't know if that helps any.

Gary Primich passed away on 9/23/2007.RIP Gary.

You have been using a Bible that is devoid of dechomai and lambano?? Gasp!! Say it isn't so!

Me three.

Perhaps the morning festivities could start with an old fashioned "hill-side sing". First, let us begin with "I'll Be Seeing You In Old Familia Places". Hit it Dorothy!

That was a hu11uva place to send ANYBODY!

I can't tell you what they put in it at HQ, but I can tell you what we put in it in Fellowlaborers. (As if you really wanted to know ) Anyhoo----The Way promoting forgiveness has all the credibility of a guy telling his "kids" to quite smoking while he puffs incessantly on a Kool "shorty".

You're a good man. Charlie Brown---I don't care what Lucy says.

Not to be too contrary, but it was Wierwille, himself, who said, "---works for saint and sinner alike." I suppose you could get wrapped up in what was meant by "saint" and what was meant by "sinner" but I think it's pretty obvious he meant it would work for "anybody" who used it. As White Dove pointed out, from a non-Christian point of view, it("believing") does not fit the criteria necessary to qualify as a bona fide "law". And then, too, there is that blasted word "alike" which means that not only does it work for both saint and sinner but it works the same way! I have to conclude, at least for myself, that the statement, although it sounds quite noble, is not accurate.

Here's a strange twist for you. About a month ago, I opened a hand addressed, first class postage, envelope that was addressed to me. Inside was a handwritten letter addressed to me. I am looking at it as I post. Here is some of the first paragraph: " I am engaged in a volunteer Christian ministry that is being done in 235 countries. We were unable to speak with you personally, but I would like to share an encouraging thought with you." It goes on to talk about paradise on Earth and quotes IS.55:11 and Psalms 37:29. Enclosed were two tracts. One was titled All Suffering Soon to End and the other was Would You Like To Know More About The Bible?. I have to give this one an A+ for novelty. Not only did the person have to buy the tracts, but she spent the cost of a first class stamp to send it to me.

Heavens no! Have another cup.

TGIF I don't think you were the least bit mean. I wish someone had done the same for me when I was doing door-to-door, though I'm pretty sure I would have just "shaken the dust off my feet". Scale of 1-10?---------zero.

If I understand this correctly, Bolshevik is stating that TWI teaches/ taught that the resurrection was contingent upon Jesus Christ operating the "law of believing".( although it is not called that in the scriptures.) Yes, I have heard this, too, though it was not recently. In fact, I have not heard anything they have taught recently. This was, in fact, taught by Dr. Wierwille. He said Jesus was able to go to the cross and give up the ghost because he was completely convinced of what the outcome would be. In fact, he said it was this certainty of his "convictions" that helped him endure what he was subjected to and that if he had faltered in his "convictions", the resurrection could not have happened.( actually, I think he said "if he had faltered for even a moment.") "But", he said, "Jesus was able to believe in the outcome because of his connection to God." That is not an exact quote. I don't recall where or when I heard him teach this It might be on an SNS tape. There are some hints at this very same thing in the PFAL class. (Not in the session dealing with "believing".) In summation, I would have to agree that VPW taught that "believing" played a pivotal role in the resurrection. He taught that any time someone was raised from the dead in the Bible, "believing" was the key facilitative ingredient. He also pointed out that in the other incidents of people being raised from the dead, it was someone other than the person who had to do the believing. This, he said, separated Christ's resurrection from all the others because it was Christ himself who believed for his own resurrection and that it was the only one that did not involve the "believing" of a third party. Actually, now that I think about it, VPW made quite a big deal of how in every incident involving being raised from the dead, you could look at it and see who the third party was but not so in the case of Christ's resurrection.

It was a dark and dreary night and the Captain said to Pedro-------------------------

Ya know It's really a shame old man Ripley wasn't introduced to these multiple types of believing. Instead of just "Ripley's Believe It Or Not", he could have had volumes 1 through 5.

When I signed on to go into fellowlaborers, it was presented as a program that would study the Book Of Acts, both academically and through everyday application. The stated purpose of the program was to prepare us as leaders so we could go back to our home areas and be more effective leaders. What is it in that representation of the program that would lead one to "expect" they would be subjected to bullying "from time to time" and suggest that it may be one's own fault that it happened due to improper attitude? My first year there, I don't remember very much unwarranted criticism or bullying, just a lot of anal retentive labor projects and very little personal time. That was when Howie was in charge. Howie was very "laid back" and seemed to have a genuine concern for people. Still, not much academic material was delivered. My second year, the program changed completely.( New limb leader/FLO coordinator)It became a seemingly non stop series of bullying and belittlement.(virtually NO academic material delivered.) The product that was delivered did not even resemble the product that was advertised. That had nothing to do with my personal expectations or attitude. I "expected" it would be a great period of personal growth for me. My "attitude" was one of meekness and willingness to learn. Thus, to say that I went into it "knowing" what was to unfold over the next two years is inaccurate at best. If anything, one would expect that such a training program would teach us how to be loving servants through day-to-day exemplification. I did learn a lot of valuable lessons about human behavior. That is to be expected of any young person put in a similar circumstance, regardless of the religion or cause being represented. However, as far as being an accurate representation of the product that was presented, I would have to say it fell amazingly short.(Their fault, not mine.) Summary: To say we went into these programs knowing what to expect is simply not at all accurate.