waysider

Oldiesman Unless I've missed something, it appears you have chosen to ignore my invitation to examine my post on the "My Friend Liz" thread. My friend, who I heard speak in tongues, for whatever worth you may place on that, was told by a grad of the AC that he was born again of the wrong seed. That person heard the teaching on "seed of Satan"(or whatever you choose to call it) directly from the lips of VPW and then proceeded to disseminate that doctrine in our local area. He was in a fragile state mentally, Oldies, and this was a totally inappropriate thing to tell him. He left me a note saying he could not bear to live with that knowledge. He took his own life. You did not find his body. I did. You did not help carry his coffin to the grave. I did. You did not have to face the fact that you got him involved in something that contributed to his death. I DID! So sit there all smug in your own little Camelot and believe that VPW had no connection to what happened. My friend is still dead and nothing will change that. Is it possible you'll never see how wrong this all was? Only you can answer that question.

Mike Perhaps you could elaborate and explain how that applies to "The LEAD Accident". Did they base their decision on scripture or did they base it on revelation? Yeah, yeah, I know scripture is revelation too. So what's the answer? And yes, Mike, I'm well aware that the actual wording used was "Do not be deceived by your five senses" and not, " Don't go by your five senses". If anything, the original wording actually intensifies the admonition because it adds the element of consequence. (ie: Doing so could result in deception.) Even so, the meaning is still quite clear whether you write it in English, French or Russian though the actual wording of a translation will often change the actual wording and syntax. You can dicker 'til the cows come home about i's being dotted and t's being crossed but the essence of the meaning will remain unchanged. When you say, "the writings that would have given us guidance", can you present a specific example? Please don't simply say "the PFAL book". I would like a specific reference to illustrate your assertion.

When they put people in an unsafe, homemade trailer and hauled them down the road as they did in the LEAD program, do you suppose they did it by revelation or was it scriptural reference? When the father of two beautiful young children contracted an infection that might have been remedied with medication and they chose to discourage timely medical intervention in favor of ridiculing him for his lack of believing until it was too late to save him, do you suppose they did so by revelation or was it scriptural reference? Sounds to me like they didn't have a very clear understanding of revelation OR the true nature of the scriptures. Perhaps "conventional wisdom" would have been the only logical choice. IMO

Conventional wisdom is what was denigrated in TWI because it involves the 5 senses.

No Using the word "like" would make this a figure of speech.(simile) Whereas In this case, the comparison is literal. (according to usage) I wish I could have seen it in the original.(That I knew it to be.)

For what it's worth. I don't post here much due to technical limitations. I sure enjoy coming here and listening in on the conversation, though.

Belle The dog thing is cool! Kinda like a feed bag for the other end. Maybe you could market it with a slogan like, " We'll stand behind our product."

What about a devise that helps someone enjoy and learn about personal interests such as something to help learn and organize colors and pigments for painting? Or a devise that helps music students learn scales and rudiments? Or how about a building block type game that helps young hockey players understand rules and strategies? Side note on Geritol. Adding iron to the diet of males and post menopausal females is definitely NOT a good idea. Lots of fairly new research linking it to cholesterol related problems.

I have personally never seen mustard other than the type grown in the common garden. That certainly does not mean other types don't exist. It's not relevant whether they existed in Biblical times because Pillai's experience and comment encompasses the twentieth century, which is when he supposedly saw them growing. I am merely saying that if he did see these plants growing in modern times, his claim to have seen them would be a simple observation of fact. As such, it would seem there should be others who could also say" Yes, I've seen this plant too and it fits Pillai's description." Who knows? Maybe a hundred people will come forth immediately and validate his claim. That would be great, in my opinion. On the other hand, if no one at all comes forth, it still doesn't negate his claim. GSC is by no means a cross section representative sampling of the general populace. Mustard is an annual. It only grows for one season.(as far as I know) Trees and shrubs are woody plants and as such grow for multiple seasons, thus allowing for greater ultimate size. Still, it would be nice if someone with knowledge in the botany field could comment on an academic level regarding current forms of mustard or plants that are called mustard.

The point I'm trying to convey here is not whether mustard grew as big as a tree in biblical times or whether the parable is accurate. The point I'm making is that Pillai is implying that he, himself, in the twentieth century, observed mustard plants of these tree-like proportions and said he wanted to make it clear to "Westerners" that this plant is capable of growing well beyond the size of what would be considered a large shrub. Did he actually see these plants growing in this day and time as he says he did? (Forget, for a moment, about the Biblical aspect of the issue.) That, in my opinion, is the question that has bearing on his credibility. Also, notice that in the second paragraph, he(Pillai) expresses his belief regarding "the spark of the divine" as it is commonly called. VPW was adamant in his teaching that "Christ in you" is the total package, not a "speck" or "spark" to be stoked like a fire until it erupted into a full fledged fire. Yet, at the same time, he(VPW) taught that the spirit in the believer had to be nurtured via speaking in tongues daily to become spiritually strong. So, out of one side of his mouth he scoffs at the "spark" idea while promoting it out of the other side of his mouth. Has anyone here been to the Holy Lands and seen these tree sized mustard plants that Pillai says he saw? ( Not talking about Bible times, talking about in the twentieth century.) If they do exist, surely someone else must have seen them.

Pond Yes, that's why the road to self identity can be one of the roughest roads one must travel. ------------------------------------------------ So what have we been able to determine thus far? Dr. Wierwille taught that cancer has a life of its own and that cancer is devil possession. The purpose of this thread is to show that VPW DID, in fact. teach this. Dr. VP Wierwille died from cancer. Dr. Donald Wierwille died from cancer. "Uncle Harry" Wierwille died from cancer. If VPW was wrong about this, it exonerates him from suspicion of possession but cast a very ominous light on his credibility. If VPW was right about this, it means we were followers of a man who was possessed, which, of course, also casts an ominous light on his credibility. Anyway you slice it, it is clear that he did teach this.

If God has called you, It's not to be VPW (Or the man he wished he could have been) Or Uncle Harry Or The Masked Avenger. If God has called you, He has called you to be MIKE, Nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing wrong with being MIKE. VPW could not have been MIKE. Uncle Harry could not have been MIKE. The Masked Avenger could not have been MIKE. Only you can be MIKE. I believe that is what God wants you to be. He wants you to be your own unique self. Something that no one else can be. He wants you to be MIKE. It's a quest, I know, Discovering who you really are, Instead of who you think you should be. Sometimes it's distressing. Sometimes it's frustrating. Sometimes it's infuriating. Sometimes it's depressing. But in the end, The rewards for being yourself Far outweigh the results of Trying to be who you think you should be.

Is it possible there are people who will never experience that sense of relief that comes with admitting they were duped? That feeling that comes from realizing you're not "tripped out" just because you left a destructive cult? I would have to say,"yes".

Thanks. DWBH I was not aware the confidentiality issue extended beyond the person's demise, especially since the cause of death is listed on a death certificate, which is public record. I had no reason to even think about looking at Dr. Wierwille's DC until I came here. But, I'm pretty naive about such legal matters. And, after all, it's not like they had to provide intimate details, just a simple "cause of death" statement would have spoken volumes to the details that would have probably been of greatest interest to Wayfers. I don't mean to sound as if I'm minimizing his suffering. It must have been a horrible way to die. I'm just saying that I think they "hush-hush-ed" it to avoid the appearance of doctrinal discrepancies.

Light Through An Eastern Window Chapter 8 "Plants and Trees" Page 100 "I have seen the clever little pieces of jewelry which were made with mustard seeds, and I wish to say that the seeds of the East are really about one-tenth of the size of the ones which grow in America and Europe. They are truly the smallest of seeds and the plants they produce grow as large as trees. I want to verify that fact, since I fear that Westerners may visualize a small shrub when they read this verse. This mustard seed represents Spirit which we receive into ourselves when we believe.-------------This speck of Spirit is ours to nourish and cause to grow until we indeed flourish like the mustard plant which rises up into a tree so large that the birds nest in it!" Hmmmm? Is there a botanist in the house?

I find it particularly disturbing that Watered Garden, who knew Dr. F. W. quite well, was kept in the dark on such an important matter. Maybe the chronology doesn't fit. I don't know. Still, it seems to me like something was being swept under the carpet. All I'm saying is that it surprised me that even someone close to FW( like WG) was kept in the dark.

Geeze, youse guys! Don't youse remember nuttin'? If you say somebody is a liar, that's a metaphor. If you say somebody is like a liar, that's a similie. If you address them directly and say,"Liar!", that's hypocatastasis. See the difference? HaHaHaHaHa! ME NEITHER!!!

Perhaps you missed my post in the "My friend Liz" thread. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ When I was quite new "in The Word", I had a childhood friend who was diagnosed as schizophrenic. He was doing fairly well(but not great) with the clinical treatments he was receiving which included very heavy duty pharmaceuticals. One of the "lovely" young ladies in our branch(who went on to much bigger and "better" things with TWI) was kind enough to tell him his problems probably stemmed from the fact that he was "born of the wrong seed". Not long after that, I found myself being asked by his father to be a pall bearer at his funeral. He left me a note saying that he had learned something about himself that he could not bear to live with. It was me who insisted he come with me to twig because I thought it could help him. It was me who had to find his lifeless body that cool Autumn night. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ditto This is the first I knew of it, too.

http://www.thewritingmachine.net/archives/...8/the_tower.php The Tower

Wouldn't be much of a doctor if he/she let you continue taking meds that made you sick. At least that's my opinion. "course that doesn't really change the fact that the syllabus I have here clearly shows that Dr. Wierwille did teach that cancer is possession. Now, if you could somehow round up all the syllabi that are not the "final" version and replace them with the one that you have--------- -Nah! --------------Still wouldn't be able to change history.

"Music hath charms to soothe the savage breast, to soften rocks, or to bend a knotted oak." Wm. Congreve-----1670-1729 Excerpted from The Morning Bride -----act1/scene 1 Still, it really has little, if anything, to do with the topic of this thread which is "A life of its own".

Thanks for looking that up, MIKE. Apparently Wierwille did, in fact, teach along those lines. Now the question that remains is."Was he accurate in his presentation of this idea?" You say "yes". I say "no". I'm ok with that. Still, it would be the icing on the cake, so to speak, if you could substantiate this from scripture. Yeah, I know you won't find the actual word, "aspirin" in the Bible. I'm talking about this idea of chemicals(pharmacia) being able to elicit these effects.

Gee I thought they were awards for spelling and grammar. Hey, if everybody gets 5 stars, the teacher said we can have a Pizza Party!

I must concur with Outfield.(regarding oppression, depression and possession.) Page 21 i. Spirits affecting the mind (2) Spirit of Oppression---Generates feelings of persecution from external sources. ("everything is closing in".) (3)Spirit of Depression----Has internal implications. So, to answer your question, MIKE, the difference between possession and oppression is that possession is a state of being, whereas oppression(in the context of the information taught in the Advanced Class) is a spiritual entity. Re: the statement about aspirin. A scriptural reference would be nice but I will accept a syllabus reference of proof that he taught it. We know he could not have gotten this by direct revelation because there are countless teachings that state that revelation can not contradict the Word. The Word says spirits are cast out in the name of Jesus Christ therefore, saying they are cast out by ingestion of aspirin is a contradiction of God's Word. Hence, It does not appear that Wierwille could have reached this conclusion by either direct revelation or scriptural reference. If, in fact, you do know where the scriptures would substantiate this or can refer to a specific section from the AC syllabus, by all means, feel free to do so.