waysider

Sadly, I think that is what some of the posters here HAVE been saying. It's a bit like saying, "Yes, Jeffrey Dahmer ate people, but it is partially their own fault for looking so darned appetizing." What he did was criminal and intentional. It makes me sick to think that somehow, something I might have done, might have unwittingly contributed to this lunacy.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to post that, WD. My memory on the details was foggy but now I know I didn't imagine it. I still think there is enough material in the numbered section and the written section to make comparisons. They knew who was in each class, where and when it was run, etc. They also had handwritten "home studies" as they were required for admittance to the Advanced Class. What did they use these for? Surely they were not participating in some sort of valid scientific study. Unless I'm missing something, I can't see what beneficial purpose these surveys might have served.

Geeze, What The Hey Did the teeth exist or didn't they? It just doesn't seem like such a tough question to answer.

This brings up an interesting point. When I was running CF&S classes in the mid '70s, there was a questionnaire that was passed out at the last session. I don't know how often it was used with classes because when I brought this up before, not many seemed to remember it. It was voluntary and anonymous (if one so desired.) It was hand written, so logic will tell you that comparisons could possibly be made with Corps papers. There were several very "off-beat" questions in the mix. We were to collect the papers and immediately put them into an envelope which we then sealed. They were then to be sent back to HQ with the other materials. Being a good Wayfer, I did just that so I have no idea how people responded. Is it possible those surveys, even though "anonymous", may have been gleaned by dates, cities, handwriting, etc.? If those surveys, that I unwittingly sent to HQ, had anything to do with some of the things I have seen posted, there are no words that can express my remorse. I don't know if anything transpired because of them but I would just like to say I am very, very sorry if I somehow was played as a pawn in the game. My sincere apologies.

I'm going to try to stick to the facts here. Situation #1. My friend was a diagnosed schizophrenic who was under out-patient supervision and followed a clinically prescribed regimen of medication. One of the "believers" in our area, who was an AC grad, told him he was "born of the wrong seed". This person learned about "the wrong seed" in the AC. He(my friend) left me a note saying he could not bear to live with the knowledge that this person imparted. I found the note next to his body. He was dead. Situation #2. Les G. contracted a very serious but treatable infection. This type of infection is, indeed, sometimes fatal. Time is of the essence in terms of treatment options. Because of the Way's beliefs in the "law" of believing, he did not have an opportunity to seek immediate medical attention. For years, I was told, "he freaked out and couldn't believe." He died. Situation #3. In Fellowlaborers(not the Corps), one of our married FL sisters became pregnant. She was having a difficult pregnancy and was advised by a doctor to limit her physical activities. The coordinators of the program told her she would have to run every morning at 5:30 AM, just like everyone else, in order to fulfill the commitment that she and her husband had made. She was told to "believe" for the situation to work out. She lost the child. I was also told, though I can not verify, that permanent damage resulted and she would not be able to conceive again. Except for the very last part, these are facts. They are not in the category of "Is It Possible?" They are in the category of "It Happened."

Are you familiar with the term"complicity", Oldies. If someone is guilty of complicity, it means they were an "accomplice". That's why the person who hires a hit-man is just as guilty as the one who pulls the trigger. The doctrines vpw extolled and the practices he commandeered make him an accomplice. Try using your bogus "spirit of suicide" reasoning in a court of law and see if it flies. The person who told him this, did so as a direct result of what wierwille taught in the advanced class. That makes wierwille complicit. You can skip the lesson on "spiritual significance". I think a judge would be more interested in cold, hard facts. The person who told him this was not aware he(my friend) spoke in tongues yet was so supposedly "spiritually tuned in" that they knew by discerning of spirits that he was "born of the wrong seed". How is that possible? It seems like your answer for everything is "Oh, they could have just walked away." Is that what you did,Oldies? Just walked away as soon as you saw something amiss? If your answer is "no", then my question is "Why not?" I'm sure you believe what you are doing is part of a noble cause, but in reality you are nothing more than someone who revels in wierwille's complicity, perhaps even complicite yourself in some obtuse way.

Hi, Nero Don't know if someone has welcomed you to GSC yet, but on behalf of myself---- Welcome to GSC!! Glad you are here.

Oldiesman Unless I've missed something, it appears you have chosen to ignore my invitation to examine my post on the "My Friend Liz" thread. My friend, who I heard speak in tongues, for whatever worth you may place on that, was told by a grad of the AC that he was born again of the wrong seed. That person heard the teaching on "seed of Satan"(or whatever you choose to call it) directly from the lips of VPW and then proceeded to disseminate that doctrine in our local area. He was in a fragile state mentally, Oldies, and this was a totally inappropriate thing to tell him. He left me a note saying he could not bear to live with that knowledge. He took his own life. You did not find his body. I did. You did not help carry his coffin to the grave. I did. You did not have to face the fact that you got him involved in something that contributed to his death. I DID! So sit there all smug in your own little Camelot and believe that VPW had no connection to what happened. My friend is still dead and nothing will change that. Is it possible you'll never see how wrong this all was? Only you can answer that question.

Mike Perhaps you could elaborate and explain how that applies to "The LEAD Accident". Did they base their decision on scripture or did they base it on revelation? Yeah, yeah, I know scripture is revelation too. So what's the answer? And yes, Mike, I'm well aware that the actual wording used was "Do not be deceived by your five senses" and not, " Don't go by your five senses". If anything, the original wording actually intensifies the admonition because it adds the element of consequence. (ie: Doing so could result in deception.) Even so, the meaning is still quite clear whether you write it in English, French or Russian though the actual wording of a translation will often change the actual wording and syntax. You can dicker 'til the cows come home about i's being dotted and t's being crossed but the essence of the meaning will remain unchanged. When you say, "the writings that would have given us guidance", can you present a specific example? Please don't simply say "the PFAL book". I would like a specific reference to illustrate your assertion.

When they put people in an unsafe, homemade trailer and hauled them down the road as they did in the LEAD program, do you suppose they did it by revelation or was it scriptural reference? When the father of two beautiful young children contracted an infection that might have been remedied with medication and they chose to discourage timely medical intervention in favor of ridiculing him for his lack of believing until it was too late to save him, do you suppose they did so by revelation or was it scriptural reference? Sounds to me like they didn't have a very clear understanding of revelation OR the true nature of the scriptures. Perhaps "conventional wisdom" would have been the only logical choice. IMO

Conventional wisdom is what was denigrated in TWI because it involves the 5 senses.

No Using the word "like" would make this a figure of speech.(simile) Whereas In this case, the comparison is literal. (according to usage) I wish I could have seen it in the original.(That I knew it to be.)

For what it's worth. I don't post here much due to technical limitations. I sure enjoy coming here and listening in on the conversation, though.

Belle The dog thing is cool! Kinda like a feed bag for the other end. Maybe you could market it with a slogan like, " We'll stand behind our product."

What about a devise that helps someone enjoy and learn about personal interests such as something to help learn and organize colors and pigments for painting? Or a devise that helps music students learn scales and rudiments? Or how about a building block type game that helps young hockey players understand rules and strategies? Side note on Geritol. Adding iron to the diet of males and post menopausal females is definitely NOT a good idea. Lots of fairly new research linking it to cholesterol related problems.

I have personally never seen mustard other than the type grown in the common garden. That certainly does not mean other types don't exist. It's not relevant whether they existed in Biblical times because Pillai's experience and comment encompasses the twentieth century, which is when he supposedly saw them growing. I am merely saying that if he did see these plants growing in modern times, his claim to have seen them would be a simple observation of fact. As such, it would seem there should be others who could also say" Yes, I've seen this plant too and it fits Pillai's description." Who knows? Maybe a hundred people will come forth immediately and validate his claim. That would be great, in my opinion. On the other hand, if no one at all comes forth, it still doesn't negate his claim. GSC is by no means a cross section representative sampling of the general populace. Mustard is an annual. It only grows for one season.(as far as I know) Trees and shrubs are woody plants and as such grow for multiple seasons, thus allowing for greater ultimate size. Still, it would be nice if someone with knowledge in the botany field could comment on an academic level regarding current forms of mustard or plants that are called mustard.

The point I'm trying to convey here is not whether mustard grew as big as a tree in biblical times or whether the parable is accurate. The point I'm making is that Pillai is implying that he, himself, in the twentieth century, observed mustard plants of these tree-like proportions and said he wanted to make it clear to "Westerners" that this plant is capable of growing well beyond the size of what would be considered a large shrub. Did he actually see these plants growing in this day and time as he says he did? (Forget, for a moment, about the Biblical aspect of the issue.) That, in my opinion, is the question that has bearing on his credibility. Also, notice that in the second paragraph, he(Pillai) expresses his belief regarding "the spark of the divine" as it is commonly called. VPW was adamant in his teaching that "Christ in you" is the total package, not a "speck" or "spark" to be stoked like a fire until it erupted into a full fledged fire. Yet, at the same time, he(VPW) taught that the spirit in the believer had to be nurtured via speaking in tongues daily to become spiritually strong. So, out of one side of his mouth he scoffs at the "spark" idea while promoting it out of the other side of his mouth. Has anyone here been to the Holy Lands and seen these tree sized mustard plants that Pillai says he saw? ( Not talking about Bible times, talking about in the twentieth century.) If they do exist, surely someone else must have seen them.

Pond Yes, that's why the road to self identity can be one of the roughest roads one must travel. ------------------------------------------------ So what have we been able to determine thus far? Dr. Wierwille taught that cancer has a life of its own and that cancer is devil possession. The purpose of this thread is to show that VPW DID, in fact. teach this. Dr. VP Wierwille died from cancer. Dr. Donald Wierwille died from cancer. "Uncle Harry" Wierwille died from cancer. If VPW was wrong about this, it exonerates him from suspicion of possession but cast a very ominous light on his credibility. If VPW was right about this, it means we were followers of a man who was possessed, which, of course, also casts an ominous light on his credibility. Anyway you slice it, it is clear that he did teach this.

If God has called you, It's not to be VPW (Or the man he wished he could have been) Or Uncle Harry Or The Masked Avenger. If God has called you, He has called you to be MIKE, Nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing wrong with being MIKE. VPW could not have been MIKE. Uncle Harry could not have been MIKE. The Masked Avenger could not have been MIKE. Only you can be MIKE. I believe that is what God wants you to be. He wants you to be your own unique self. Something that no one else can be. He wants you to be MIKE. It's a quest, I know, Discovering who you really are, Instead of who you think you should be. Sometimes it's distressing. Sometimes it's frustrating. Sometimes it's infuriating. Sometimes it's depressing. But in the end, The rewards for being yourself Far outweigh the results of Trying to be who you think you should be.

Is it possible there are people who will never experience that sense of relief that comes with admitting they were duped? That feeling that comes from realizing you're not "tripped out" just because you left a destructive cult? I would have to say,"yes".

Thanks. DWBH I was not aware the confidentiality issue extended beyond the person's demise, especially since the cause of death is listed on a death certificate, which is public record. I had no reason to even think about looking at Dr. Wierwille's DC until I came here. But, I'm pretty naive about such legal matters. And, after all, it's not like they had to provide intimate details, just a simple "cause of death" statement would have spoken volumes to the details that would have probably been of greatest interest to Wayfers. I don't mean to sound as if I'm minimizing his suffering. It must have been a horrible way to die. I'm just saying that I think they "hush-hush-ed" it to avoid the appearance of doctrinal discrepancies.

Light Through An Eastern Window Chapter 8 "Plants and Trees" Page 100 "I have seen the clever little pieces of jewelry which were made with mustard seeds, and I wish to say that the seeds of the East are really about one-tenth of the size of the ones which grow in America and Europe. They are truly the smallest of seeds and the plants they produce grow as large as trees. I want to verify that fact, since I fear that Westerners may visualize a small shrub when they read this verse. This mustard seed represents Spirit which we receive into ourselves when we believe.-------------This speck of Spirit is ours to nourish and cause to grow until we indeed flourish like the mustard plant which rises up into a tree so large that the birds nest in it!" Hmmmm? Is there a botanist in the house?

I find it particularly disturbing that Watered Garden, who knew Dr. F. W. quite well, was kept in the dark on such an important matter. Maybe the chronology doesn't fit. I don't know. Still, it seems to me like something was being swept under the carpet. All I'm saying is that it surprised me that even someone close to FW( like WG) was kept in the dark.

Geeze, youse guys! Don't youse remember nuttin'? If you say somebody is a liar, that's a metaphor. If you say somebody is like a liar, that's a similie. If you address them directly and say,"Liar!", that's hypocatastasis. See the difference? HaHaHaHaHa! ME NEITHER!!!

Perhaps you missed my post in the "My friend Liz" thread. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ When I was quite new "in The Word", I had a childhood friend who was diagnosed as schizophrenic. He was doing fairly well(but not great) with the clinical treatments he was receiving which included very heavy duty pharmaceuticals. One of the "lovely" young ladies in our branch(who went on to much bigger and "better" things with TWI) was kind enough to tell him his problems probably stemmed from the fact that he was "born of the wrong seed". Not long after that, I found myself being asked by his father to be a pall bearer at his funeral. He left me a note saying that he had learned something about himself that he could not bear to live with. It was me who insisted he come with me to twig because I thought it could help him. It was me who had to find his lifeless body that cool Autumn night. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------