waysider

Hey folks Nobody murdered VPW so that there proves conclusively that he was one "A-OK" kind of guy. Yup. Shore does. Johnnyheis said so. And I can clearly see how it is relevant to a discussion of sales ploys used to pitch PfAl. Hey, Johnny----Did you know he had body guards? Did you know he sent "goons" out to have "friendly" conversations with people out in the field who were bad-mouthing "The Ministry"? Yeah, I see it now. Nobody murdered him so that proves he didn't do anything wrong. I gotta tell ya, Johnsonur, that's some pretty twisted logic. Do you ever consider murder as an answer to dealing with someone who has wronged you? You can tell me Johnny, It's just between us pals.

Don't let yourself feel old. About 250 people heard him teach this stuff at AC '73 also.

HA! Now I see it! When Wierwille was quoting God-Breathed scripture, his words were God-Breathed. (And Vice Versa) Nikita Krushev memorized the Gospels word-for-word. Therefore, when he recited them, his words were God-Breathed. It's all clear to me now. We must all begin immediately to master The Communist Manifesto. It's God-Breathed because Krushev could recite it as well.

Sheesh The guy made all kinds of references relating to this subject and THOUSANDS of people heard him do so. How hard is that to comprehend? Along these same lines, there were teachings going around in the mid-'70s that the spiritual reason North America was allowed to be taken from the natives is because they were worshipping false Gods and that God knew in his foreknowledge that The Way would flourish in what is now America. Sick----Sick-----Sick-----and---- Sicker!

Groucho Pm me if you need any help. Uhmmmm-------Testing the Sangria, that is.

It's a shame Flip Wilson died so young. He could have taken "The Right Reverend Leroy" and "The Church of What's Happenin' Now" to a whole new level.

God told Abraham "Kill me a son." Abe said "Man, you must be puttin' me on." God said "No." Abe said "What??" God said "Well, you can do what you wanna but next time you see me comin', you better run." Abe said "where do you want this killin' done?" God said "Out on Highway 61" Highway 61 Revisited-----------Bob Dylan ------------------------------------------------------- Does it surprise me that Bob Dylan is a prophet just like Joni Mitchell? Nope--- Not at all. What surprises me is finding out that Abraham lived in Mississippi. (In the Delta, no less.) Man! These rock songs are just filled with God-breathed word. Weren't any of us paying attention? Maybe we've just forgotten.

Lord have mercy! Now we've got Joni Mitchell speaking the wondrous works of God. It was a rock song, for cryin' out loud! Joni Mitchell wrote it about her experience , meeting a priest, on her way to Woodstock. ------------------------------------------ Woodstock Joni Mitchell I came upon a child of God As I was walking along the road I asked him,"Where are you going?" And this he told me. He said, "I'm going down to Yazgur's farm I'm going to join in a rock and roll band I'm going to camp out on the land And try to set my soul free We are star dust We are golden We are billion year old carbon And we've got to get ourselves back to the garden. "Then can I walk beside you? I have come here to lose the smog And I feel as I'm a cog in something turning." Maybe it's the time of year Or maybe it's the time of man. I don't know who I am But life is for learning We are stardust Billion year old carbon We're caught in the devil's bargain And we got to get ourselves back to the garden. ------------------------------------------------------------ Geeze Louise! How the heck is that some kind of "secret" message from God? What's next? Were AC/DC really modern day Prophets? Some might say the "Big Balls" song was about the Moon and the Sun. Pretty heavy stuff!!! Dontcha think??

I just now got it. I must be still runnin' slow 'cause of the time change thing.

Welcome, Friendofinnie I wish there was an easy answer but there isn't. Part of the answer lies in the fact that they taught us to believe that "rational" thinking is really "irrational". :blink: The number one "rule"(so to speak) is/was to never even entertain the possibility that someone with an opposing view might have a valid point. In fact, a focal point of one of the sessions of the P@wer For Abnndant Living class dealt with the five steps that the serpent supposedly used to deceive Eve and bring about the fall of Mankind. Step number one was that she listened to and considered what he said. See how that works? If you start to consider the viewpoints of others, you are destined for catastrophe just as certainly as Eve was. (cough, hack, wheeze) We're usually a pretty friendly bunch.(for the most part) Hope you enjoy your visit.

Hi TG You don't seem at all harsh to me. I don't personally get too hung up about doctrinal differences any more. Before I got involved with TWI, it was my belief that God could convey a message to you through a sunset or the sound of a songbird or the aroma of ocean spray. Not a word-for-word kind of message, of course, just a kind of awareness or even an emotional sensation. Then, when I got involved with The Way, I found out you're supposed to put Him in a box where you can talk to Him by SIT and He answers if you meet all the right conditions.(cough) You don't need SIT to talk to God and He doesn't need it to talk to you. That doesn't mean SIT is not real or that you shouldn't do it. It just isn't the end-all answer to communicating with God that TWI taught us it was. When you witness a baby being born, the sights, the sounds, the smells all combine to send some sort of wordless message to an innermost region of your being. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about, not "Oh Shanta's".

Hi Mike Just curious. How can you be riding my pony if you think my story was phony? ps. The story is true. It's the pony that is fake. But, of course, you probably figured that out when you tried to saddle up.

Mike There never was a golden pony, though it seemed amazingly real at the time. The PFAL book is just another book among millions and millions of other books. It has no particular significance in the grand scheme of history aside from the fact that most of the people who post here were affected by its contents. Not only is it not "God-Breathed", it's not even a very good reference book for doing any kind of serious Biblical research. Have you ever seen the movie "Being There" with Peter Sellers? I suggest you rent it sometime and view it with an open mind. Be sure to watch the credits at the end.

I'm sorry you missed the point, Mike. It really has nothing to do with the idea of life being an illusion or that God wants to "elude" us. >>>>> Mike: Over and over time after time I have shown here to poster after poster that crucial information provided by the teacher was either forgotten or never absorbed by us his students. <<<<< waysider: Over and over time after time you have been shown here by poster after poster that crucial information provided by "the teacher" has not been forgotten and was absorbed by us his "students". The golden pony was an illusion, Mike. What do you think that might symbolize?

Hi Mike I've got a little Stowwwry for you. It's kind of a parable, I guess, except it really happened. When I was just a little whipper, I wanted to be a cowboy. Maybe you did too. Lots of kids did back then. More than anything, I wanted a Palamino pony.(That's that beautiful golden color you see in the movies.) Trouble is, that's not too realistic for a kid in the inner city. One day, as I was out front playing with the neighbor kid, I happened to look down toward the end of the block just in the nick of time to see something that was a beautiful golden color, turning the corner, moving away from us. What do you suppose it was I saw? Yep. You guessed it. It was, of all things, a Palamino pony. Just to be sure, I asked the neighbor if she had seen it too. She was sure she had. We set out immediately, at a full gallop, in pursuit of that buckin' bronco. There was no time to consider where we would keep it or what we would feed it. We were on a mission. We were so excited, we didn't even notice the houses that became a blur as we flew past them. Huffing and puffing, we made it to the end of the street and turned the corner. And there it was, our Palamino pony. He was still on the run, though, and we only caught a glimpse of that magnificent yellow tail streaming in the wind as it turned the next corner at full speed. We only paused long enough to catch a quick gulp of air as we both looked at each other in a knowing fashion. We knew we had to continue the pursuit. Off we went, gasping for air and straining to run just a little bit faster in an effort to gain some distance. At last, we made it to the next corner. Again, we only caught a glimpse of that golden tail and his rear hooves as he toyed with our chase as if it were a game. The scenario repeated itself until we were back where we started and the pony we wanted so badly had vanished into thin air. I hope you find your pony someday, Mike. Really, I do.

And the inverse is-------- drum roll, please -----------------Keys lock doors. How's that for mathmatical accuracy? pssst!--- Yo Mike!-----It ain't God-Breathed! Here's a quote from PFAL: "Fear is sand in the machinery of life." When Wierwille said that, he was quoting Eli Stanley Jones, NOT GOD. So maybe the class is partly "Jones-Breathed", ya think?

Mississippi Squirrel Revival.

Believe it or not, I have actually seen this happen. I don't remember if it was a squirrel or a raccoon, but it came down the vent stack and got stuck in the trap in its quest for freedom. It died, of course, and swelled up to approximately the size of a '58 Buick.(Roadmaster, I think.) I used the experience to immediatedly sign it up for PFAL, citing references from the collateral, Release From Your Prisons.

I never knew Donnie personally. By all accounts that I've heard of him, he was a heck of a nice guy. I'm sure he was totally convinced he was doing the right thing. I would never want to negate the many good memories people have of him. That is not at all the purpose of this post. This whole witnessing and undershepherding concept was based on II Tim. 2:2. First, look at who it's addressed to. Well, according to the "administration" thinking of PFAL, it is addressed to "us". ("all the epistles are addressed to The Church, the body of Christ."-----PFAL) But is that accurate?----Rhetoric intended. Next, if you read the verse without the distortion of TWI, you see that the word "witness" is used as a noun. Now, some may say, "Yes, but that's a convention of the English language and it wasn't written in English." This word used for witness here is the same word that the word martyr comes from. The context clearly demonstrates that it is being used as a noun, not a verb. By the way, understanding what is written in light of its context is not unique to TWI, PFAL, or any other Biblical study entity. Honest----No kiddin'!! Undershepherding? Is that a real word? I know the meaning of under and I know the meaning of shepherding but undershepherding? Seems like it out to be someplace in The Bible if we're supposed to dedicate so much effort to it. I don't mean a scripture that can be squeezed to extract the meaning, I mean the actual word and its definition. Just for "shirts and girdles", look at the very next verse. II Tim. 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. I suppose the class could have been called "Witnessing, Undershepherding and Soldiering" but it might have been a pretty tough sell in the early 1970s when it originated due in no small part to the tense political climate that existed. VPW made a small personal fortune at our expense. We were his unwitting and willing sales force. Not only did we not get a commission, we actual payed for the chance to participate.

One man's mess is another man's order.

-------------------------------------------------------------------- I finally "got it" and that bothered me for a while. ------------------------------------------------------------- Here is the quote from page 2: Our goal in Witnessing and Undershepherding II Tim. 2:2 The basic reason we witness is to help people into the classes on Power for Abundant Living and help them walk on it. Now here is II Tim. 2:1& 2 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. I am curious to know how that could possible be translated: Go forth and sell classes. Indoctrinate the students into our cult dogma.

I visited my buddy's grave site this past spring. Does that count?

Nope. This predated my FLO days. In FLO, we did "door-to-door" and some "mall witnessing"(not shill---- at least in the twigs I was in.) on witnessing nights. (We were primarily supposed to use our "9-5" jobs as a vehicle for witnessing, so we really didn't do much evening witnessing. We mainly worked at limb HQ or on limb HQ assignments, such as MANNA, or prison outreach, or special projects like "Foreordained"(Gospel quartet) etc. in the evenings.) But, since all our "twigs" were closed corporation, we could not bring them to twig with us. (Not many newbies want to go to twig at 11 pm anyway. Go figure.) Instead, we turned their names and info(ie: sales leads) over to the believers who were operating twigs in their locale. They followed up on the "under-shepherding" aspect. Sometimes the local people ran the classes and sometimes we did if it wasn't too distant. It was really an impersonal approach. Once you passed their name(sales lead) on to the local people, you were pretty much out of the picture and had no direct contact with them. Even if you wanted to, it would have been difficult because we did not have phones in the "houses" and almost all our time was controlled. Plus, you could not leave the complex without specific approval other than to go to your "9-5" or regularly scheduled FLO activities. There was exception made for Saturday afternoon and evening so you could go into town and get a haircut or do laundry at the laundry-mat, etc. Still, you could not leave the local area without prior approval. It was very much a PFAL sales effort.

Ya know----- It would have all been soooo much easier if the witnessees had just followed the same script that the witnessers were using. How dare they improvise and change the script to suit themselves!!!!! It's just not right, I tell ya. It's just not right.

Boy, this could go a zillion different directions. (And probably has on older threads I haven't read.) Without going into scriptures and history, I'll just throw in my two cents. Wierwille proposed that the only way to PERFECTLY worship God was to SIT. The inverse is that, without SIT, you can only worship GOD in an inferior manner. It was part of Wierwille's "schtick". It was his way of isolating us from the rest of mainstream Christianity and promoting an elitist attitude amongst our ranks. Please note that this is not a comment on SIT, per se, but rather a comment on how Wierwille used it to give us a sense that we were unique and special. He used it to instill a subliminal sense that we were actually superior to other Christians who did not subscribe to this train of thought. And you know, how is it that drawing a mental image of an apartment with red drapes while you SIT constitutes worship? If anything, it draws your focus off of God and redirects it to yourself. Why does worship even require that a language be spoken? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "When through the woods and forest glades I wander And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees; When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur And hear the brook and feel the gentle breeze Then sings my soul, My Savior God, to Thee How great Thou art, how great Thou art." How Great Thou Art------Carl Gustav Boberg --------------------------------------------------------------------- Not saying I'm right. Just saying I believe worship goes beyond mere words that are uttered, whether they be tongues of men or tongues of angels.