waysider

"He's a student, like you."

(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction------Mick and the boys --------------------------------------------------------------------------- A preachment, dear friend, you are about to receive on John Barleycorn, nicotine and the temptations of Eve.

I suppose I'll rub someone the wrong way for saying this but here goes. I feel that same "cringe" feeling when I try to listen to modern "Christian Rock". It's like they are trying to convince themselves(and their audience) that this is what they believe. I know I could be wrong(and probably am) but it just gives me a creepy feeling to try to listen to it. And it's not about the actual message or whether or not it's "On The Word".(cough) When I used to listen to some of the early way stuff that was being independently produced, I never felt like I was trying to make myself buy into something. Even today, if I put on that first PDST album, it evokes a pleasantness that doesn't force itself on you. Is any of that similar to what you experience in the various church settings or have I derailed this thread? edited 'cause I ain't such a goood speller anymore.

Don't beat yourself up, 2fer. I knew next to nothing about TWI or VPW at the time this happened. It's only now, 30+ years later, that it's starting to make any sense to me. Heck, for all I know, maybe I wasn't supposed to understand it "in the moment". Maybe the reason it was so vivid was so I would always remember it and it would resurface at a future date. If that's the case, perhaps your "gut" reaction is really a similar experience----- not a warning of what to do, but a bit of data to be stored and understood at a future time. Funny that we both felt that sense of guilt for having had such thoughts. For me, the guilt grew because the more I thought I was learning about TWI and it's doctrines, the more reason I had to feel guilty stupid to have had those thoughts. I don't know. I'm only theorizing. Even though I don't understand it, it is no longer a source of guilt for me and shouldn't be for you either.(IMO)

I suppose it's a good thing they didn't mark them 1, 3 and 4.

Juke---George Smith

What bug??? :B)

Here's one for Jonny Lingo

Hi, Jonny Yes, people from all walks of life commit suicide for a multitude of reasons. I have posted this before but it bears repeating. Many years ago, a friend of mine, who was in a compromised state due to mental illness, was told by an advanced class grad, that he(my friend) was born again of the wrong seed. Maybe someone other than him would have shaken it off and walked away. Instead, he left me a note that said he could not go on living with this knowledge about himself. He committed suicide. I found him. In my mind, there will always seem to be a direct connection between this person's actions(as a representative of TWI) and my friend's suicide. It's not a coincidence. He killed himself because of what a believer told him. That person based that conclusion on teachings that came from TWI. Now, of course, he could have also taken his own life over some other scenario, and, perhaps, would have if given enough time. I don't know. But that's kinda like saying, "Sorry I ran over your dog, Mrs. Jones, but he was old and would have died soon anyway so it's not really all that bad." Anyway, my point in posting was not to single out the specific subject matter of this experience, but, rather to simply say that I too have had a similar experience. It just so happens that the subject matter involved The Way. I don't think this kind of thing is unique to TWI and apologize if I gave that impression.

Yes, we might all be wrong. But I don't think so. That's just my opinion. I'm not posting this as some sort of slam on TWI or to discredit the legitimate work that was done by many caring individuals who were part of the organization. I'm simply stating that this incident happened to me. No one else was involved. Call it revelation, call it psychic premonition, call it spirit guides, call it yo' Mama, call it what ever you like. The point is, it happened on an individual level. It's not like an entire congregation seeing a vision simultaneously. There were some key elements that I personally found interesting. 1. I knew very little about The Way at that time, much less the terrible things I would come to discover decades later. (In fact, I think there were very,very few who did know anything about the dark side of TWI in 1972.) 2. I knew almost nothing about VPW. I had seen one picture in the way magazine that had him posing behind a podium or something like that. 3. I had no idea that he wore those scarf ties until some time later. (Might have been CF&S in 1974.) 4. I presented this to the local leader who discounted it as a case of "unrenewed mind". Man, can you imagine how unrenewed your mind would have to be to see a burning bush or hear a donkey talking? If it was God talking to me, I don't think He was telling me to shout it from the mountain top. I think He was trying to warn me as an individual. The whole thing kind of reminds me of some guy who sees a bright light in the sky and notifies authorities. Next thing you know, some reporter is holding a microphone in front of him saying, "Soooo, Mr. Smith, do you believe this proves there is life on other planets?" To which Mr. Smith replies, "Heck if I know. I just know I saw a bright light in the sky."

I thought beauty was in the eye of the beholder. Oh, well---"Only love can break a heart." :blink: And don't forget---"Many a tear has to fall."

Yup Had a somewhat similar experience in 1972. I was brand new in The Word, had not taken the class, and had spoken in tongues for the first time only a day or two before this happened. I knew almost nothing about TWI or VPW. My twig leader gave me a "lift list" and told me to "lift" the people on it. The first one on the list was VPW. I had seen a picture of him in Way Ragazine. As I tried to visualize him, I saw this image of him, wearing one of those scarf ties that I later discovered he liked to wear. He looked straight at me, smirked and flipped me the bird!! It was not a dream, I wasn't asleep. It was not a hallucination because I knew it was not real. (and I wasn't stoned.) I don't know how else to describe it but it was very vivid and intense. It never happened to me again. For years, I felt guilty that I had let my mind think this of such a great Man of God.(cough) I have no idea if it was revelation or "bad chicken" or what it was but I can tell you that it really did happen. For a long time, every time I would "lift" VPW, I would have to force myself to forget that experience. It's wacky, I know, but you asked so I told you.

Hmmmm. OK---Suppose you are "discharged" and then readmitted at a later date?

Hey, Man!! HaHa! I remember saying that a lot back in the '60s. My Dad always hated that expression. That's probably why I used it so much. Before I got involved with TWI, I had a strong belief that God would talk to you "where you're at". For me that meant He could "talk" to me through a sunrise ,or a chill in the air, or words to a poem, or the rhythm of a popular song, or the smell of peanuts roasting as I stepped off the bus downtown. TWI took God and put Him in some kind of display box for me that could only be viewed with a secret code that unlocked the box if I could manage to decode the secret Greek words. How dumb was that? Yeah, It's kinda like figuring out that 2+2=4, all by myself, and then believing some knuckhead who comes along and says, "No it doesn't!!" I still believe there is a God. Not sure if His actual name is really that important. I just know that after almost 20 years out of TWI I'm just now beginning to see His presence around me again. I think a lot of what escaped the minions of TWI was the deliberate symbolism that they insisted was literal even though they claimed to understand figurative language. HaHaHaHa! I think they believed the literal stuff was figurative and the figurative stuff was literal. Literally!!--(in a figurative sense.) But, hey!----It's all according to current usage, dontcha know? Anyhow, looking forward to your future posts waysider

Beam me up, Howard Scotty!!

If I recall correctly, I think 30 was the age at which a man was considered an "adult". Thus, he was given the official "go ahead" at that point. Kinda like having to wait until legal voting age to cast a ballot in the elections. You might be a legal citizen because of your birth place, but you have to wait until you are "of age". Don't know if that is Biblically accurate. Just saying that's how I remember it being taught.

It's always sad, on one hand, to hear how people have been traumatized by the stark realities of nature, but encouraging to see how they have overcome adversity by determination and perseverance.

So true, Roy, so true. Holy hugs "back atcha", Bro.!!

Several years ago, I visited my great aunt in the hospital on her 97th birthday. When I wished her a happy birthday, she looked at me and said, "I hope it's my last." I didn't know how to respond. She sensed that I was ill at ease. Instantly she said, "Don't worry, I've lived a wonderful life and I'm ready to go." I have since had other incidents that resembled this one. I know that is off the track from our conversation here but I thought it might add something to the idea of death being the absolute worst option. OK-- back to burning our King Crimson LP.s

Hi, MM Good to see you again. Have you tried one of those on-line search services? Of course, they are not free. I've never used them.(I'm a cheapskate) Maybe you could start a thread in "open" requesting information on using this sort of thing. Wish I could help more.

Hmmmmm. Just dawned on me. I think it might have been in session #9, The Giver and the Gift

I don't recall which class this was in. The subject of the teaching was the difference between the gift of holy spirit, a singular entity which had multiple characteristics(ie: manifestations), and gift ministries, which are plural. This was taught by VPW. He said that gift ministries are plural because they are a gift to the church, not to the individual who is entrusted with them. This is how he explained that God only gives one gift to us as individuals(ie: holy spirit) and thus is not a respecter of persons because he did not give a gift(ministry) to one person and withhold a gift(ministry) from another. Is this an accurate interpretation? Heck if I know. It kinda sounds like an exercise in rationalization to me, like an effort to prove "there are no contradictions in the scriptures." That way, God can't be seen as a "respecter of persons". But, I could be wrong. What might be worth looking into is whether or not he got this concept from Stiles or Bullinger or one of the others he borrowed from, and then looking at how that conclusion was reached. That's my 2 cents(adjusted for inflation)

oops! I edited before I saw your post. Sorry.

A question held 'til the end.

I heard different versions of this same story on numerous occasions. I think the first time I heard it was from people who had taken the AC in 1971 or 1972. The next time I heard it was at AC '73. I don't recall if it was taught from the pulpit or covered in our twigs. I also heard a version of it when my (now ex) wife returned from the class at Emporia in '77 or '78. If I recall, I think there may be an account similar to this in one of the "spirit" books that TWI promoted for AC grads. (ie: Challenging Counterfeit or one along those lines.) I've heard different variations such as, "all lived except ----" and "all died except-----" Why was VPW so consumed with devil spirits and the paranormal? I thought he was the guy who was supposed to be showing us how to live "the more abundant life", no?