waysider

A big "thank you" to all who have responded to this thread thus far. It always amazes me how a person who wasn't even present a particular event can offer "expert" testimony. I saw a cartoon in Mad Magazine, a long time ago, that was captioned, " I saw the whole thing, what happened?"

Mark What I meant was that the mind control, behavior control and abusive treatments she describes are quickly discredited as exaggerated or false testimony. Then it is implied that her testimony is simply an example of falsely viewing oneself as a "victim" when in reality the person had agreed to this treatment in advance and was perfectly free to walk away from the situation at any time. (Or at least that's how the poster perceived it.) Furthermore, there was a verbal "strong arm" effort to re-institute the *lockbox* by not talking about these things. I suppose the same arguments could be made for any woman who finds herself in an abusive domestic situation, not just members of The Way. "Why don't they just walk out the front door and walk away?" Life is just not that clear cut and simple. Then, the bullying begins; suggesting that the person who has been violated is actually the one at fault. I hope that clarifies what I meant when I indicated I felt there was a parallel similarity.

Thanks, Twinky Excellent points.

Hello, T-Bone It's a little bit(OK, a lot) like asking your dog why he licks his own butt. He'll cock his head sideways, stare at you in a manner that tells you he has no idea what you are talking about and then go right back to licking his own butt.

Chance and the Choir

I hope this works.http://homepage.mac.com/talkinblues/Musicv...Theater114.html

Another thing I find myself wondering----------- How did a guy who wasn't even there become such an expert on what happened? Kinda reminds me of the old Henny Youngman gag. "I saw a man fall out of a third story window today. I ran over to him. 'What happened?', I asked. 'I don't know', said the man, 'I just got here myself.' "

Sorry, Mike, all I see in that post is "All Hail PFAL!"

Ya know, ya just gotta wonder what kinda tales Tic coulda told if only dogs could talk.

Hey, Mike! Ever notice how frequently "the written forms of PFAL" is the focal point of your posts and how infrequently Jesus shows up?

One of the questions posed in the original post was "Were you told that if you left you would no longer have God's protection?" Now, admittedly, I have paraphrased that somewhat to make this post flow. If the original poster does not find that acceptable, I trust he will let me know. One respondent's answer to this question was "No". I found that a bit odd, if not dishonest. I think it is a fairly well known fact that this is actually one of the more significant controlling tactics that TWI employed. I have to wonder how honest this person is being with their self.

Hey, Mike! Has it ever occurred to you how frequently VP Wierwille is the focal point of your posts and how infrequently Jesus shows up? There's probably even a mathematical exactness to the ratio if someone were so inclined(or bored) to research it.

First, let me say that I DO believe God can raise someone from the dead. BUT Medical files are filled with similar incidents. Wasn't there something in the OT law that required a person to be dead for a certain amount of hours before they were officially considered dead? I thought that was part of the significance of Jesus being dead for 72 hours before the resurrection. I could be wrong about that. It's been a long time since I looked at this stuff.

Thanks, Ham I guess what I am getting at in question #1 is that, the program in which I personally participated, Fellow Laborers, was never represented as a program that would "toughen us up" It was represented as an opportunity to do an in depth study of The Book Of Acts, both scholastically and in practical application so that we could go back to our home towns as more effective leaders. I really don't think anyone came into the program with a preconceived notion or agreement to subject themselves to "toughening up". If that was the idea behind the program, it was grossly misrepresented. But then again, what does "toughen you up" mean? Does it mean being able to run a faster mile or endure more sleep deprivation or sessions of belittlement or learning to live with less than adequate employment or what? As for question #2: I don't think I ever exhibited "weakling" behavior during my time in the program. Likewise, I don't think of myself as some sort of "victim", though I did personally witness what I would consider victimization of some of my FL brothers and sisters. As for question #3: If these things really happened, and I can assure they did, why should I rationalize their effects on people other than myself or make excuses for the abusive behavior I witnessed. It seems like minimizing these events or belittling those who were at their brunt is somewhat of a slap in the face even if it's not my face being slapped.

I'm starting this thread so the podcast thread doesn't become anymore off-topic than it already is. The quote above was a response to my posting of a particular incident that happened in Fellow Laborers . You can find that post on the "Losing The Way" thread but please post any response you may have here and not on that thread My first question, which is multi-faceted, is this: How many, who participate here, went into their respective programs, whether it was WOW, Fellow Laborers, Way Corps or other, with any kind of advance notice that the programs were designed, in part, to "toughen you up"? What does the expression,"toughen you up" mean? Question #2: Do you think of yourself as a "weakling getting victimized"? (Either then or currently?) Question #3: Although I'm sure, that, at the time, we must have seen it as a "challenge to do bigger and better things", does that challenge include sweeping these things under the rug and pretending they were insignificant?

That reminds me, there's a guy who recently posted on another thread, that in 1979, he was allowed to take the Advanced Class despite missing twig for 6 months. Well, like the old saying goes--- it's not WHAT you know.

Like father, like son----Tim Buckley(1969)--Let Me Sing A Song For You

HaHaHaHaHaHa! ( I borrowed that.) Yeah, the orange book is quite hard to read, at least without the special glasses that help you to see the wondrously amazing revelatory significance that has been cloaked in secrecy for thousands of years. Kinda makes you wonder how the poor saps who walked the Earth before PFAL even thought they had a snowball's chance in he!! of ever getting saved or understanding The Bible.

This is an impromptu jam with Dennis G. and Little Annie.

I think this thread has become somewhat of a living example of what the podcast is describing. For whatever that's worth.

Yeah, I know what you mean. It's hard to find ANYTHING when your eyes are shut!!!

Hey there, Mark I always enjoy reading your posts. Maybe it's the civility and logic you put into them. I don't really know. But hey------I'm just a crazy mixed up kid in a crazy mixed up world!

A Day In The Life---- The Beatles. --------------------------------------------- Well, the rain exploded with a fiery crash as we fell into the sun.

Now you see. Oldies I tried to answer your question about mind control in a perfectly civil manner. Still, you insist that I am claiming victim mentality. I never, even once , said that I considered myself a victim. Comparing a person's dismissal from a job with what happened in the Fellow Laborers program is about as silly as it can get. No one counseled us and said "this is what we expect and here are the consequences if you fail." Most of the times we had no idea what the person was accused of. It was not explained to us and we were forbidden to discuss it. One time(and there were many) we were rousted out of bed in the middle of the night, ordered to drive to limb HQ within a time frame that was physically impossible to meet and ordered to sit in total silence and darkness for what seemed to be an eternity. When the meeting started, we were castigated for tardiness and told that we, the Fellow Laborers , were the reason that the ultimate goal of Word Over The World was in jeopardy. You see, it was told to us that our performance was a total disgrace to "God and His Word" and since we were in the "birthplace" of the ministry, we were dragging the whole ministry down"spiritually". We had no idea what we could have possibly done. There was no question and answer session. We were forbidden to discuss it. We were forbidden to speak during the meeting The program was to be terminated when the sun came up. The next morning, we all met one last time at our 5 am meeting and were informed that we were being given one more chance but we would have to follow orders to a tee without question or else. Are you seriously telling me that you don't see elements of mind control in that incident?

Thankfully, though, we do have undiluted originals of the PFAL book which, of course, is the real God breathed word.