waysider

(I have modified some portions of your post in order to address them.) Do you realize how amazingly restrictive that would have to be? Going back to the "soft answer" example. Suppose a person(we'll call him an Atheist for illustrative purposes.) in a customer service related field stumbles on the "soft answer" technique. He subconsciously keeps it in his cache of techniques because of its effectiveness. He hasn't gotten this from written scripture nor has he received revelation. He simply stumbled on it through trial and error. And yet, the technique produces results. Why? Does it work because he got it from scripture or received revelation or "operated" believing? No. It simply works because it is God's word. Even though said person does not believe it is God's word, it will still work. The only condition that needs to be met is that he must utilize it. He could, in fact, simply view it as a wise way to do business. It will still work.

It's usually far more subtle than that. But if you do get that option, it could well be a turning point. You see, Brushstroke, we didn't just buy this stuff, we sold it, too. We even had a "class" that taught us techniques to use to sell the PFAL class and the ministry in general. It was called "Witnessing and Undershepharding". Here are some brief exerpts: "The basic reason we witness is to help people into the classes on Power For Abundant Living -------" ( W&U class syllabus, page #2) "Witnessing is a way of life as ambassadors to the people of the world". (page #3) "witnessing is like life- you make it work by "believing"--". (page #5) "I suggest you read How To Win Friends And Influence People by Dale Carnegie. This will help you in this first step." (page#7) FOLLOW THROUGH WITH UNDERSHEPHARDING (page #11) "The best tool in undershepharding is the PFAL class.(more than once)" (page 13) and on and on and on------

For starters they'll saddle you with some small responsibility like helping set up chairs. Before you know it, you'll be the guy who is IN CHARGE of setting up chairs. They will let you think you are making some important contribution to a noble cause. It will make you feel needed and important. It will escalate from there in measured increments until your life revolves around running classes and signing up new students. (Who, of course, will start out helping them set up chairs.) Actually, it's probably already started with "the lending of the Blue Book". ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Did you realize the Blue Book only contains the very basics that are taught in "The Class"? Yeah, you see the other books go into much greater in-depth detail. 'Course you can't really understand those books by themselves, you have to read them in context with "The Class". You do want to take the class so you will understand them, don't you? I mean, once you've heard the "Truth", how could you possibly go back to your "old man" ways? It would be like a dog that returns to its own vomit. Besides, once you know what "the adversary" has up his sleeve, it would be foolish to go back to the "world" where he can do as he pleases with you. That would be downright dangerous. You'll be much safer if you stay within "the hedge of protection" that the "one true household" provides. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Starting to get the gist of it?

To All The Girls I've Loved Before Julio Iglesias and Willie"The Red Headed Stranger" Nelson. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I raise my head in a touchy situation. (xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) Yes, I make my bed in the heart of the nation." ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ I can bring you pain I can bring you sudden pleasure na na na na na na na na na na Your life will only gain if you're love's final measure.

Money For Nothing-----------------Dire Straits -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I know you want to leave me"

Well---OK But suppose I faithfully change that oil without a clue that the engine could seize-up if I didn't. Would the engine still benefit from my proper course of action? Or, would my ignorance negate the benefit?

Hi, Chuck If you were "lost", it's unlikely you would be seriously contemplating the concerns you expressed in your post. IMHO

This is from a "wiki" on Norman Vincent Peale regarding his Power of Positive Thinking.(1952) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Teachings “Positive thinking,” as described by Peale could be broken down into a three step process of practicing repeated self-hypnosis, attaining “divine” or God’s power to use for oneself, and eliminating and avoiding all negativity in life. The first step in positive thinking is focused on the use of repeated "techniques." Peale describes positive thinking as first and foremost as “simply a series of practical and workable techniques for living a successful life.” [6] Peale, who had no mental health credentials, was vague as to a definition of his "techniques," although he repeatedly stated that they were scientifically proven and "firmly established as documented and demonstrable truth." [7] Mental health experts, however, clearly saw and identified the techniques as hypnosis.[8] Hypnosis is defined as "A trance like state that resembles sleep but is induced by a person whose suggestions are readily accepted by the subject."[9] The reader was instructed through constant repetition of affirmations to bypass his conscious mind and implant suggestions into his unconscious mind where they would operate automatically, without the interference of conscious will. “Let them sink into your unconscious and they can help you overcome any difficulty. Say them over and over again. Say them until your mind accepts them, until you believe them – faith power works wonders.”[10] Peale's readers were instructed to "pray ceaselessly," to use his techniques repetitively and permanently. Peale promised the reader that if they followed and practiced his techniques, they could attain success over almost any adversity. “It is a power that can blast out all defeat and lift a person above all difficult situations.”[11] Peale insisted that the only way to acquire these attitudes was through the unconscious and through his techniques. Peale repeatedly instructed his readers that their conscious will, their self knowledge, self determination, courage and intelligence were not be enough to live a successful life. He described these conscious acts of will as unreliable, untrustworthy and not sufficient to meet the demands of life. The conscious, self-determining self was to be rejected, disempowered and “surrendered,” so that Peale’s techniques and the unconscious were now the determining and motivating factors in the individual’s life. The payoff for this rejection of self, according to Peale, was the attainment of God’s power, “I hereby draw power from You as an illimitatable source,”[12] is one Peale formula. Men now had superhuman powers, and God had now become "man's omnipotent slave." [13] Peale further said that regular prayer was insufficient to meet the demands of life, that in order for prayer to really work the reader had to use his techniques. Peale said controlling the unconscious, using his techniques, was the only channel to attain God’s power. “Surface skimming, formalistic and perfunctory prayer is not sufficiently powerful” [14] says Peale when describing his “prayers” for overcoming an inferiority complex. Formalistic prayer used for thousands of years by Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and other mainstream religions didn’t produce sufficient results according to Peale. Peale also promised his readers that if they followed his techniques that they could always think positively and remove all negativity from their lives. Negative attitudes were not to be tolerated but avoided at all costs according to Peale. Negative thoughts were to be repressed, cancelled out and destroyed through his techniques. “It is important to eliminate from conversations all negative ideas, for they tend to produce annoyance and tension inwardly." [15] Peale’s readers were instructed to never doubt or question a statement Peale made or this would cut off the “power flow.” Any negative doubting of Peale or whether his techniques worked were to be immediately canceled, and the reader was instructed to immediately repeat the Peale phrases. The Peale statements, and the words that made them up were actual “things” according to Peale. “Thoughts are things,”[16] and the repetition of his phrases were more important than actions. Repeating positive only statements would cause only positive things to happen. But according to Peale, the reverse is also true. Thinking negatively causes negative things to happen. Thus the fear of negativity, of avoiding all negative, fearful "thoughts" and realities is part and parcel of positive thinking. There can be no positive thinking without this avoidance of negative thinking, according to Peale. “Never think of the worst. Drop it out of your thought, relegate it. Let there be no thought in your mind that the worst will happen. Avoid entertaining the concept of the worst, for whatever you take into your mind can grow there.” [17]

You say the "soft answer" example is moot because it is not a "promise". I can recall many, many times when this very verse was offered as an example of the "over 900 promises". I also don't see in the verse that you quoted where it says the Word is only guaranteed to work if a "promise" is implied. And I definitely don't see where it says the Word will only work in you if you believe. (Promise or no promise) But let's put that aside for the moment. Back to the "soft answer" example: ( Let's forgo a debate of whether or not this is actually God's word.) Assuming this is God's word, if and when I use this tactic and it works for me, that would mean that God's word(the "soft answer" technique) is working in/for me, regardless of my status as either a saint or a sinner. No believing is required on my part. In fact, I could, with skepticism, try this technique at the advise of someone else merely to see if it works. If and when it works------------ it is God's word at work in/for me. No believing required. No saint or sinner status necessary.

So then there's a "promise' in there that says "If you believe hard enough, you won't die."?? I must have missed that one. Any idea where I might find it?

So then if an atheist uses something from Proverbs, such as " A soft answer turns away wrath", it won't work because there is no "believing" involved? Come to think of it---- How does that factor in with Wierwille's statement that "believing" works for saint and sinner alike? You see, in my Proverbs example, the person is not a "saint" nor are they operating "believing". I'm just sayin'--------

KJV (King James Version) "---the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." Is the word "also" supposed to be in that verse? I don't know. Maybe somebody who is versed in these types of intricacies can chime in here. If it is, though, it would mean that the word of God works in those who don't believe, too. Kinda like an additional, descriptive qualifier. (ie: "---the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you who live in New Jersey.") That really makes sense when you think about it. Consider this. ----"A soft answer turns away wrath." Does believing have anything to do with whether or not that advise works? -------------------------------------------- NWMV (New Way Ministry Version) "---the word of God, which effectually worketh if/because you believe." Doesn't seem to carry the same meaning in my opinion. Seems to take the pressure off God and put it on YOUR shoulders. But what do I know?

Because

Here's a little discussion we had regarding the "law" of believing a couple of months ago. In some obtuse way, I think it may somehow tie into this concept of "bad things happen to people who aren't believing and it's their own fault". ( There is a commercial break about 3/4 of the way through it. Please don't let that deter you.) http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...=16327&st=0

It never ceases to amaze me the twisting and contorting of logic you will go through to keep your idol on a pedestal. I never said they died of what we refer to as "natural" death. I said they died a "physical" death just like everyone else who ever existed including Dorcas. (In case it escaped your notice, she didn't stay alive forever.) Nor did I ever say it was "God's Will" that they die a painful, horrible death. You have still failed to show me where the scriptures say that deliverance is "available" in EVERY incident that life brings our way. You are doing the exact same thing Wierwille did. You are implying that our short comings in this life are all our own fault because we fail to "believe" for deliverance. I ain't buying it. (Nor am I buying into the idiotic "law" of magical believing.) It ought to be renamed "the law of passing the blame and assigning unwarranted guilt".

There is only one man that has ever escaped death, Oldies. And the Bible doesn't say he accomplished this by operating the "law" of believing. It can't possibly be "available" for every other man, woman and child who has ever inhabited this planet to escape death by operating the "law" of believing. Your implication here is that these men are directly responsible for their own deaths because they failed to "operate" a so-called principle that is not Biblical but rather a man-made concept proposed by VPW. Please show me some scripturally sound evidence that states that physical death can be escaped by "believing".

You tell me, Oldies, was it? Does The Bible say that deliverance is always "available" in all( without exception) instances? If the answer, on the other hand, is that it is "available" in all(within a particular distinction), what and whom determines that distinction? If it is God who determines that qualifying criteria, it would be fool hearty to try to over ride it with the "law" of believing. Your logic on this particular subject appears to be horrendously flawed and idolatrous.

Oldiesman I may have misunderstood your explanation of why the lives of Paul and Peter(add Stephen to that, if you like.) ended in the awful ways they did. Please feel free to correct me if I have. (misunderstood) Your stance appears to be that these men died these horrible deaths because they were deficient in their ability to operate the "law" of believing in regard to deliverance. In other words, it was their own fault. Is that your contention? Aren't you the same guy who can't understand why people didn't just walk away from The Way? What is that phrase you have used,"No one held a gun to their heads."? The Way taught people that to walk away was equivalent to leaving the "hedge of protection" that the "one true household" provided. In essence they were saying that to leave would put you out of fellowship and at the mercy of "the adversary". And, of course, if you are "out of fellowship", it's impossible to receive revelation that might be required for personal safety and survival. You could end up the same way these men of Biblical note did if you walked away. Is that how you justify why these aforementioned men died? Because they brought it onto themselves through "unbelief"? Please clarify if I have misconstrued your meaning.

You are correct. It is, indeed, Donovan. Dylan has never done it, though it certainly has that same kind of flavor. When Donovan hit the scene in the mid 1960's, he was often referred to as the UK's answer to Dylan. (He is Scottish) That particular style was quite popular at that time. Lyrics were of utmost importance to this type of music. Another singer/songwriter that took a similar approach was one of my all time favorite "folkies", Eric Anderson. Eric actually started out as a contemporary of Dylan. Anderson, Dylan and Phil Ochs often played the same clubs in Greenwich Village. Here is Eric Anderson in 1970 in case you would like a sample. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g70zT3lXPZc Yer Next!!!!!

A liter is just slightly larger than a quart.

Thanks, jen-o I don't think you are rambling at all. You're making perfect sense.

"In the chilly hours and minutes of uncertainty, I long to be in the warm hold of your loving mind."

I sure wish I would have had your wisdom and insight when I was 18. Que Sera Sera.