waysider

So you see, there's the difference. You are aware of the risks. The people who Weird-Wolf injured and damaged very likely didn't think they would be facing any "risks" by entrusting their well being to a man that turned out to be a callous, drunken, sexually deviant, delusional huckster. Shame on them. It's all their fault.

Hi, Bride My point in posting that was merely to illustrate that Wierwille and LCM were not the originators of this theory or the Khazar theory nor did they get them by some special revelation from God. It's also a known fact that Wierwille had direct ties to groups that fall under the "Identity Christian" umbrella. What Wierwille basically did was take obscure things from other sources and pretend he got them via a special hot line he had to God when, in fact, he got some of them from a hot line he had to White Supremacy groups. The guy was a con-man and he used God as his shill.

I'm sure the guy who carelessly runs a red light in front of your motorcycle will take comfort in knowing it's not really his fault 'cause he didn't mean to kill anybody.

Wierwille built an entire organization by deliberately misrepresenting the meaning of the handful of scriptures he used as the foundation of his "ministry". Start with John 10:10, if you want, and ask yourself if Wierwille didn't perhaps take it out of context and give it a meaning that isn't really there. The sole purpose of Jesus's life was to insure a really cool life for us in the here and now? Sounds a bit far fetched and simplistic to me. Then, move on to II Timothy 3:16 and ask yourself honestly if this is really God's exhortation to us to make "study" the focal point of our lives or just a gimmick to enlist us in an endless procession of classes. (Especially so, when you consider that the word "study" is an inaccurate translation to begin with.) Next, move on to II Peter 1:20 and read it in its true context. Maybe even do one of those wacky sentence diagram exercises that we older folks remember from grade school and see what the subject of this passage is. Now, some people will say "it wasn't written in English!" Maybe not but it was TAUGHT to us in English using the conventions of the English language. Yeah, he put it all together, alright, in a way that suited his own agenda.

If you willfully manipulate the thoughts and actions of someone who is mentally ill, you must also share responsibility for the results. Let me give you a "fer instance", Oldies. Suppose you, as an Advanced Class grad, tell someone that you know to be psychiatric patient with suicidal tendencies about being "born of the wrong seed" and explain the permanence of it. Now suppose you tell that same person that you think their problems are the result of their being of "the wrong seed". Do you then share any responsibility for their subsequent suicide? Or is it all their own fault because they were, after all, mentally ill?

I don't recall anyone saying they "commanded" it. Your hero was a charlatan. (and a cold hearted one at that.)

That sounds very different from our program where living together in a commune setting was the focal point of the experience.

Here is an excerpt from The Christian Patriot that I found at this link: http://lexingtonlutheran.org/sermons/s70603.htm "A visitor from a foreign land could visit a hundred churches before he ever heard of the righteousness of God which preaches both the Law to condemn the sinner and the Gospel to save the sinner. He could visit a thousand churches before hearing that the Bible IS God's Word from Genesis to Revelation, completely without error. And here lies the reason for the sinfulness that disgraces our nation: The failure of America's churches." Here is a link to a Wiki that details the Christian Identity Movement that gave birth to such entities as The Christian Patriot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity (It's a bit lengthy but if you read through it you will find reference to the original sin being a sexual liaison between Eve and the Devil. You will also find reference to the theory that today's Jews are not the Biblical Jews.) "One of the most distinguishing beliefs held by Identity Christians is the belief that modern Jews are not the Biblical "House of Israel". Identity Christians hold that modern Jews are not even the Biblical "house of Judah", but rather claim they are Edomites, descendants of Esau, that mixed with the House of Judah in Babylonian captivity, or are Khazars that adopted Judaism in 838 A.D. to avoid warring with Christian Europe, or the emerging power of Islam in the Middle East.[5] This is known as the single-seedline version of Christian Identity. Other Identity Christians, known as dual-seedliners, believe that Jews were a result of Eve and the serpent in the Garden of Eden having sexual intercourse.[6] Some Identity Christians believe that a version of Christianity must have existed before Roman Christianity entered Europe. Proponents of this theology cite the existence of Celtic Christianity and its struggles with Roman Christianity as evidence, arguing that Celtic Christianity must have been a reflection of the native beliefs of many European tribes. On a related note, many Christian Identity churches display animosity towards the Roman Catholic Church, referring to it as the Whore of Babylon." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "English banker Edward Hine (1825-1891) published an influential book on British Israelism in 1871 called Forty-Seven Identifications of the British Nation With Lost Israel. In 1884, Hine sailed to America to spread his ideas there. Howard Rand (1889-1991), born in Haverhill, Massachusetts, took Hine's ideas, added antisemitism, and called the result "Christian Identity." Wesley Swift (1913-1970) is considered by the FBI to have been the single most significant figure in the early years of the Christian Identity movement. Swift helped popularize a new element: the "two-seed" (or "seedliner") theory, which holds that Eve was seduced by the Serpent, conceived Cain as a result, and that modern Jews are actually descended from Cain. Most current Identity groups embrace this belief. (Some figures once prominent in the Identity movement (Pete Peters, Ted Weiland) believe that modern Jews are descended from the Khazars rather than from Satan. However, in recent years they seem to have backed away from the Identity label.)"

Yes, but I would like to leave it out there for someone else if that's OK.

Is that from the middle of the song, the end or beginning?

Perhaps I should have made my implication a bit clearer. I did not mean to imply that The Way or VPW were 100%(wholly) responsible for the incidents being discussed. However, one would have to be blatantly remiss to ignore their contributory involvement. Furthermore, one would have to be callously aloof to suggest that the victims themselves are to be solely blamed. The time has come to stop denying the diabolically pivotal function that Wierwille served in the debacle that came to be known as TWI.

Does that same standard apply to depraved cult leaders?

I plan to visit the grave of a friend of mine sometime in the near future. If I had to choose only two words to describe him, "selfish and narcissistic" would definitely not be the two I would choose. I personally find it offensive that someone who never even met him can be so certain they know what happened. edit I'm curious to know what credentials qualify Dennis Prager to offer a definitive answer for such a complex issue.

One more to make you feel good.

I was feelin' so bad, I asked my family doctor just what i had.

Hofmann has died. http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/l30121760-swiss-hofmann/

All Along The Watchtower-----Bob Dylan

You're probably right But I still can't help thinking that he found some sort of perverted pleasure when he discovered that he could make people think Gary's death was linked to a special power he supposedly wielded.

Actually, I think it's "My flag boy / your flag boy---"(The flag boy is a member of a tribe's procession at Mardi Gras.)

And you know, this happened 11 years before he chugged his last Drambuie. Did he change his behavior after this incident? Of course not. By all accounts he intensified his perversions. Maybe it gave him some kind of twisted pleasure to know he contributed to someone's death.

I remember hearing about Gary's death when I was in Fellow laborers. The story we got was that wierwille had gotten revelation that no one should leave HQ that particular day. Supposedly the revelation he got was that whoever left would die and that is why he gave the order for no one to leave. Did he ever give such an order? I don't know. That's not the point. The point is that we (there were 49 or 50 of us) were specifically told that to disobey the orders of a MOG could very well bring us the same consequences. So, yes, we were told that disobedience to a MOG(and I'm pretty certain quiting the Corps or TWI would fall into that category by their definition.) was unacceptable. And you know, it never really occurred to me until this moment that this contradicts the Advanced Class session where it is taught that revelation is never given unless there is ultimate profit from it. In fact, the example given in the AC is of someone getting revelation that a certain airplane flight is going to crash. Wierwille said God would not give such revelation unless the person subsequently used the information to stop the flight. Airplane crash, car wreck-----What's the difference? He didn't stop it so his so called revelation was bogus by his own definition.(Which of course he got from someone else anyway.) Wasn't there another such story that wierwille got revelation someone would drown in the duck pond if a fence wasn't put around it? The guy was a mental case, not a MOG!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nitgmAInI18

There were people whose deaths were exploited as a vehicle to illustrate what could and/or would happen if you dared to leave the safety of the household. I'm quite sure there are many here who could cite examples of this very practice. You have no way of knowing, Oldies, who believed this or to what extent. When you say people did not believe it, you are merely offering a speculative opinion.

Apparently you must have lived a sheltered life. What exactly does the term "grease spot by Midnight" mean to you?

I'm Lazy, That's All.