waysider

First, please allow me to apologize for taking this discussion off track into a discussion of what is and isn't stroke related. There was a casual comment made regarding a stroke and I became distracted and veered off topic. My personal belief is that the man developed a horrendous disease I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. His death was a result of this disease, as evidenced by his death certificate. (Which can be found on the front page.) Likewise, his will (or lack of) to live was an effect that is common to such situations. Attributing his death to anything theological or esoteric is, in my opinion, erroneous. I hope that clarifies my opinion.

Thanks for this, RG: Debate Rules and Suggestions Advice on Debating with Others Avoid the use of Never. Avoid the use of Always. Refrain from saying you are wrong. You can say your idea is mistaken. Don't disagree with obvious truths. Attack the idea not the person. Use many rather than most. Avoid exaggeration. Use some rather than many. The use of often allows for exceptions. The use of generally allows for exceptions. Quote sources and numbers. If it is just an opinion, admit it. Do not present opinion as facts. Smile when disagreeing. Stress the positive. You do not need to win every battle to win the war. Concede minor or trivial points. Avoid bickering, quarreling, and wrangling. Watch your tone of voice. Don't win a debate and lose a friend. Keep your perspective - You're just debating. You need to be very polite when disagreeing with someone in English, even someone you know quite well. With someone you know very well, you can disagree more directly. A little refresher course never hurt anybody.

Knockin' On Heaven's Door--------Robert "Zimmy" Zimmerman (AKA--Bob Dylan)

Hey ya'll My grandson Cletus (that's his name) says the chicken crossed the road to escape my other grandson Cleophus (he's the ornery one) who was chasing it with a big frying pan in hand. Personally, I suspect my granddaughter Clara Belle (that's short for Helen) had a hand it somehow. Hmmmmmm! Come to think of it, whenever we have Shake n' Bake, she does seem rather eager to "hep".

Rascal I understand your point. But, no, this was more of what would typically be associated with aphasia, which is a result of "stroke". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphasia Several other people in the group I was with had the same impression. Sorry, I don't recall the exact year but it was a very large limb meeting with hundreds of people in attendance.

In retrospect, there are so very many instances that I thought were God inspired but turned out to be false, such as all the propaganda from Liberty Lobby that he passed off as revelation, that it is difficult for me to consider that anything at all was really from God. Much like the boy who cried "Wolf!" I suppose. That's just my opinion. Everyone has one.

A Sunday Kind Of Love

The exact words, unfortunately, have been eroded by time. However, that was the message that was conveyed, not to me personally, but to a roomful of branch leaders, class instructors, etc., in an officially sanctioned "leaders meeting" by one of the Rev.'s Those types of meetings were not recorded for posterity like SNS as they were never intended for the ears of the general populace. On another occasion,(on tape, somewhere, maybe AC) when discussing the work of Bishop K.C. Pillai, Wierwille said the only problem he had with Pillai was that he STILL held to Trinitarian doctrine, as if to say(based on the context of the teaching) that one of the two of them had changed their position. I don't think there is any doubt that VPW was a Trinitarian at one point. The question is, when did he assume a monotheistic stance? As to the mis-speak: I asked why they simply did not do a retake once the error was discovered. I was told that these sessions were one time only events and the essence of it would be lost if it was redone. That's the kind of thing you expect to hear in a recording studio or movie set, not a class that is supposed to be about Biblical research.

I'm fairly certain he had a stroke. When he taught at an Ohio limb meeting in about 1980, it was apparent that something was amiss. His gait was unsteady and he searched for words that eluded him. My first impression was that he had a stroke. It was a packed auditorium so I'm sure someone else must remember.

Aside from Monotheism, what similarities really link Islam with Christianity? Islam is much more than a set of religious beliefs, it's a way of life.

Ok, I Think I see where you are going with this. Three major problems with this scenario, though. 1. You would first have to accept "believing" as a viable concept. 2. You would have to assume that wierwille was some sort of MOG, capable of garnering favors from THE higher power through use of said "law" of believing. 3. You would have to ignore the possibility that the POP paper was a fabricated piece of fiction designed to facilitate a coup d' etat. -----------OR---------------------- He was really just a run-of-the mill con man who happened to develop a horrible disease and die. Not a hard choice for me.

I don't really understand the question. The man had a horrible disease and it killed him. People in that situation frequently lose all desire to continue. I wouldn't equate that with suicide.

There is a place in PLAF (The Wonder Class) where Wierwille excitedly declares, regarding Christ's second coming, " He's coming back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He's coming back as Lord God Almighty!" This class was filmed in 1967. To my thinking it appears he held a Trinitarian belief at that time. Then, in the early 1970's, as VP was beginning to promote his JCING theology, we class instructors were specifically told to gloss over that part of the session. We were told to put a spin on it and pass it off as a simple mistake due to "the intense excitement of the moment". Maybe it should have been called The Way Spinastry.

Here's one I can listen to anytime. Bill Evans----Waltz For Debby

Oh man!! Not long after this song came out (197x?), I was working night stock in a major grocery store. This song was in heavy rotation on the store's music system. I must have heard it a thousand times.(every night!!) (Another one they played to death was Down On Main Street by Jerry Rafferty) It just wouldn't be fair for me to answer this one.

Some "minor music" for Sudo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEzsPGHsi90 Here is the classical piece that provided the framework for Eric Carmen's All By Myself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RXnorFwfPA...feature=related And here are 'The Three B's" for Geo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gchIPjvIx6k http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHQmc4NF3hw

I have to go to work. Would someone like my turn?

Good point W.W. I don't think VP looked through the papers looking for victims. I think it was the other way around. In other words, if he saw someone he was "interested" in, he had their information readily available. It has been mentioned here on GSC that the CF&S class also contained a questionnaire which the instructor was supposed to collect from the students and place in a sealed envelope. The envelope was then sent directly to HQ. I confirm this to be accurate. There was no justifiably legitimate reason to conduct any sort of survey, much less one that did not meet validation standards.

The problems with TWI far exceeded mere doctrinal points. It was a convoluted lifestyle that was designed to support the whims of a select handful of upper level officers.

A group does not have to have theology at its core to be defined as a cult. For example, there is one very large, well known motorcycle club that satisfies the criteria that is typically assigned to cults. They have a very charismatic leader whose orders are followed implicitly. Their lifestyle is at odds with the lifestyle of the general public. BTW--- Has anyone other than VPW used anti-Trinitarian views as a defining criteria?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New Tune: I'm going where the water tastes like wine We can jump in the water, stay drunk all the time -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That would be Going Up The Country by Canned Heat. It was "derived" from this 1928 recording by Henry Thomas called Bull Doze Blues.

Here's the Wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Those_Were_the_Days_(song) Sir Paul produced it as one of the very first non-Beatle efforts generated from the (then) newly built Apple Studios

My personal opinion is that the male submitted "Birth to Corps" papers served the same purpose as a red herring in a mystery novel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring_(plot_device)

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That's not off topic at all T. This was supposed to be a Biblically oriented class that we thought would enrich our family lives. Last time I checked, babies(and children) are a very important component of many families.