waysider

What about youtube?

Hey Dove Quick question for you. Were you ever really in The Way? No, really, fess up. 'cause this kind independent thinking and acting on your own doesn't even resemble the stuff that went on in the "ministry" I was a part of. I think you would have been shown the door rather quickly in The Way that I was in. Or is that what happened? Did they give you the boot for non-compliance? Go ahead, you can tell me. I won't repeat it to another living soul. (It'll be our little "lockbox" kinda thing.)

Lord have mercy! What has this world come to? Not only do I find myself cracking open a Bible, here I go quoting it. I Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. Yeah, I know somebody will be quick to say, "It says 'I become as' not 'what I say becomes as'." But look a little closer. The brass is no longer making music, it's "sounding". The cymbal isn't part of a musical context, it's merely "tinkling". And so it was with VP. He said a lot of words but, because of the darkness of his psyche, those words became "sounds" and "tinklings". Like the humble cymbal, he couldn't muster more than a "tinkle" due to his distorted sense of human value. HaHa! We thought he was speaking profound wisdom when in reality he was merely "tinkling". Hey, Mike, ever catch that Golden Pony? He sure is an elusive one, though, isn't he?

Hi, T-Bone I think we may have even taken "compartmentalization" to a new and higher level (for us, at least) when we were in The Way. Yes, we knew some of our thoughts seemed bizarre to the people in "The World" (use the "law" of believing as a prime example.) but, at the same time, we openly reinforced them with each other. So, we compartmentalized on an individual level and at the group level gave each other the nod of approval to do so. Then, of course, since we became experts, of sorts, at doing it, we naturally carried it into the way we thought about the organization. Call it group think, call it mind control, call it your Mama if it makes you happy. There was some BAAAAD chicken in that Wayburger sandwich.

Gosh, Robes, I don't really know what to say. I mean, if it weren't for the "blood is thicker than water" thing, would you still be interacting with this person? It's not my place to say, really but it's something to think about. You can't make someone get help if they don't want it or refuse to recognize the need. Not that I'm offering some sort of diagnosis (for which I most assuredly am not qualified) but she really owes it to herself and the ones her behavior is affecting to at least discuss the possibility of need for treatment with a professional. I definitely "get" what you are saying about keeping things status quo. (ie: If you've been thinking about changing jobs or getting a divorce, etc., put it all on the back-burner and find a way to work around it for at least a year if you can.) When I got divorced many years ago, I read an article that included a study that detailed the deleterious effects these sorts of traumas can exact on ones heart (the physical structure). It's pretty serious stuff. Sorry, I no longer remember the article or study well enough to give citation. As to the suicide, I can't speak first hand what it feels like to be in that frame of mind but I think it must be like a cumulative sort of condition, kinda like a self brainwashing sort of process. I think that is what we did in The Way. We self deluded ourselves bit by bit and piece by piece until, one day, we realized we were no longer the same person who sat excitedly in PFAL for the first time, waiting for the tape to start. And, some of the mental changes you experienced , you knew to keep hid, things like how you now believed you could change things in the physical world by merely thinking about them. Yeah, some of the stuff you just knew you should keep to yourself lest people think you had lost your mind. And, of course, you were certain you had not. You don't see yourself changing, but you do. I had a friend who was diagnosed schizophrenic and took heavy medication. Everything seemed to be going great for him. He got a job, a place to live, a reliable car, etc. I took him to twig because I thought it might help him. One of the believers told him they thought he was born of the wrong seed. You and I might have shrugged it off as wackiness but for him it was the straw that broke the camel's back, the cumulative effect. He killed himself.I've tried to make some sense of it over the years but I still don't have any answers. I will keep you in my prayers.

There really is no reasonable explanation. Not only did VPW violate these individuals, he deceived the rest of us as a group. He led us to believe he had some sort of special connection to God when, in reality, he was parroting propaganda from anti semitic and white supremacy groups. He lied about the origins of PLAF (The Wonder Class) in order to make us believe he had some special insight on the nuances of the scriptures, all to satisfy his own little lusts and perversions. In my opinion, people who continue to defend Wierwille after learning of his true nature and agenda, are caught in an ongoing process of victim-hood themselves.

"You want to know what killed that little boy? I'll tell you what killed that little boy, a 1935 Buick Roadmaster."

*Sigh* Wish I had listened.

Ever heard of the Neo Nazis? They extol the virtues of Der Fuhrer. But what difference should it make? Old Adolph left this planet over 60 years ago. Too bad he didn't take his toxic idealism with him. Likewise mit herr vierville.

Ain't my job, Pal. I'm not the one who made the claim. God called us to TWI???????? Holy cats, I actually have a story of how I think He may have told me to run like the wind to get away but I didn't listen because my twig leader told me it was "unrenewed mind".

Hey, Dove Had any luck finding those "studies" yet? Just wonderin'

Happy Birthday, young lady!! (Sorry I'm late for your party. Had to work and all that.)

She referenced her source, that being our lessons in Figures of Speech(the class). That particular source is a well known reference amongst this community. Were you fooled into thinking these words originated with her?

Ya know, for a guy who says we ought to just get over it and move on (yes, I know that's not a quote.) you sure seem touchy about the past, no? BTW---I think the figure of speech that describes that comparison is hypocatastasis. Here is a Wiki that shows how Bullinger defined it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocatastasis ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hypocatastasis From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Hypocatastasis is a figure of speech that by implication declares or implies a resemblance, representation or comparison. It differs from a metaphor, because in a metaphor the two nouns are both named and given; while, in hypocatastasis, only one is named and the other is implied, or as it were, is put down underneath out of sight. Hence hypocatastasis is an implied resemblance or representation: that is an implied simile or metaphor. A hypocatastasis has more force than a metaphor or simile, and expresses as it were a superlative degree of resemblance. Bullinger gives the following example: one may say to another, “You are like a beast.” This would be simile, tamely stating a fact. If, however, he said, “You are a beast” that would be metaphor. But, if he said simply, “Beast!” that would be hypocatastasis, for the other part of the simile or metaphor (“you”), would be implied and not stated. This figure, therefore, is calculated to arouse the mind and attract and excite the attention to the greatest extent. For more information see Ethelbert William Bullinger, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (London; New York: Eyre & Spottiswoode; E. & J. B. Young & Co., 1898), 744. Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocatastasis" Categories: Rhetorical techniques ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HMMMMM! Curiously, if you change the word "beast" to the word "dog", you have an almost verbatim VPW quote from PLAF (The Wonder Class). Now, is that LIKE a coincidence or IS that a coincidence? oops! Dooj beat me to it. Let's see, now, "If any two shall agree------"

It's like tryin' to tell a stranger 'bout Rock & Roll

You really nailed it, newlife. I think one of the reasons people usually don't understand it is because they don't have a concept of how mind control and behavior modification works. Hollywood has created a mystique that conjures up images of zombie-like people in trances. Even here at GSC, there are people who refuse to believe they were ever victims of "brainwashing" and insist they were always in control of their own actions.(And these are folks who were actually there!!) I used to work with someone who had also been in a cult (not TWI) that used similar techniques. We got onto the subject of cults one day and discovered we had this commonality in our backgrounds. It was like an spontaneous camaraderie sprouted right there on the spot. I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for but that's my 2 cents.

Hi, jen-o Maybe I should have stated that in a more neutral tone. I certainly didn't mean to sound as if I was making a derogatory statement about people who SIT. I personally still use speaking in tongues from time to time but not for the same reasons as given in PLAF (The Wonder Class) I use it to refocus under chaotic circumstances or to take my mind off things like the impending pain of a dental tool. Here is a link that discusses the "turning off" aspect of speaking in tongues. http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~tim/introframe/tongues.pdf Taking this one step farther, I believe that when a person is engaged in the sort of glossolalia that produces these physiological changes, it should be considered "real" because the evidence is there to clearly examine. It's "really" happening. On the other hand, if a person is merely repeating memorized sounds and words or forcing the process through practice sessions(ie:"exceller sessions"), the speaking in tongues should be considered "fake" because it appears that this conscious variety would not produce the same changes in brain function, though that is my own conclusion, not one that was drawn by the study. I think it would be interesting to see this study conducted during a "practice session". I would also be personally interested in seeing it conducted while a vocalist is scat singing or an instrumentalist is ad libbing.

Jen-O Mark includes a link to his site at the bottom of each of his posts. http://www.godskingdomfirst.org/ Is this the article you are referring to? http://www.godskingdomfirst.org/KingdomLiv...m#livingbyfaith

A friend of mine became acutely ill with a very serious disease. Rather than seek the medical treatment he desperately needed he tried to "believe" his way back to health. He died. Then he was blamed for his own death because he shouldn't have "freaked out". There are thousands of such records here on GSC. It's a dangerous kind of fire to play with and it really is not Biblical in origin. You simply can't change reality by thinking about it, visualizing it, or trying to speak it into an altered state.

We can correctly identify pizza because we (most of us) have had verifiable previous experiences sampling pizza.

Perhaps they found their inspiration here: Norman Wexler Biography (1926-1999) Born August 6, 1926, in New Bedford, MA; raised in Detroit, MI; died after aheart attack, August 23, 1999, in Washington, DC; son of Harry and Sophia (Brisson) Wexler; children: Erica, Merin. Career: Writer. Cleveland Playhouse, Cleveland, OH, playwright-in-residence, 1970. Also worked in advertising. Member: Writers Guild of America West. Awards, Honors: Academy Award nomination, best writing, story and screenplay based on factual material or material not previously published or produced, 1970, for Joe;National Endowment for the Arts grant, 1970; Cleveland Playhouse Award, c. 1970, for Red's My Color, What's Yours? A Play without Love; Writers Guild of America Award, best drama adapted from another medium, AcademyAward nomination, best writing, screenplay based on material from another medium, and Edgar Allan Poe Award nomination, best motion picture, all with Waldo Salt, all 1973, for Serpico; Image Award, National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, c. 1975, for Mandingo; Writers Guildof America Award, best drama, 1978, for Saturday Night Fever; National Science Foundation grant.

http://www.paulnoll.com/Books/Clear-Englis...ate-advice.html Debate Rules and Suggestions Advice on Debating with Others 1. Avoid the use of Never. 2. Avoid the use of Always. 3. Refrain from saying you are wrong. 4. You can say your idea is mistaken. 5. Don't disagree with obvious truths. 6. Attack the idea not the person. 7. Use many rather than most. 8. Avoid exaggeration. 9. Use some rather than many. 10. The use of often allows for exceptions. 11. The use of generally allows for exceptions. 12. Quote sources and numbers. 13. If it is just an opinion, admit it. 14. Do not present opinion as facts. 15. Smile when disagreeing. 16. Stress the positive. 17. You do not need to win every battle to win the war. 18. Concede minor or trivial points. 19. Avoid bickering, quarreling, and wrangling. 20. Watch your tone of voice. 21. Don't win a debate and lose a friend. 22. Keep your perspective - You're just debating. You need to be very polite when disagreeing with someone in English, even someone you know quite well. With someone you know very well, you can disagree more directly.

I wasn't the one who presented them as "proof". I believe that puts the onus on you.

QUOTE(WhiteDove @ Jun 23 2008, 12:14 PM) * It has been proven in studies that such sharing's (positive experiences) help victims, in recovery as they are inspiring. [Bolded words added for clarification] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Would it be too forward of me to ask for a sampling of these "studies"?

There was a mean man from "the corn field" Whose family was not very well-heeled He preached to tree stumps Saw snow on gas pumps That mean,mean old man from "the corn field".