waysider

It would be interesting to see just how many non-TWI "guest speakers" actually spoke to TWI audiences over the years. (Excluding political pitchmen, gun safety instructors, etc.)

I don't recall anyone ever voicing that expectation.

What is the point you were making?

So, then, what conditions existed in TWI that made it the BEST place to give a tithe?

Wouldn't that seem to make God a "respecter of persons"? Also, it contradicts this passage from CSBP, page 3: "God has no favorites. Prosperity is dependent upon certain definite laws which everyone may learn and apply." As well as this one from page 20: "This is God's basic law of prosperity for all people. This law stands firm in the face of all realization to the contrary and operates in all fields of endeavor." Side note Re: Net or Gross page 11 "When we allow anyone or anything, such as government, to take from our incomes before we have set aside at least one-tenth for the Lord's work, we are simply defeating ourselves and indicating by our actions that someone or something is ahead of God in our material life."

So, then, in essence, the top dogs, VPW included, didn't really "believe" all their own banter about how we were "more than conquerors" in every situation because of the "Christ in me". They didn't really "believe" God would protect them and give them adequate wisdom. Instead, they resorted to the same methods used by "natural man"----- guns, goons, guard dogs and bodyguards. And to think that these are the same guys who once told us that carrying a spare in the trunk meant we were believing to get a flat tire. Where was their "believing"?

There's really a yes and no kind of answer to your question. TWI taught that spirits can not cause any physical action in the real word without a living host, be it human or animal. In other words, spirits can't take over a machine like in the Stephan King novel about a car that comes to life. The "influence" thing, though, is a whole different story. TWI taught that devil spirits can influence your thinking and actions. In the Advanced Class, there is a whole list of devil spirits that supposedly can do exactly that.

And the scriptural basis for this would be--------????

Many of these people (especially VPW) were from rural backgrounds where guns are a way of life. One of the first things you learn when you "come of age" is that you never brandish a firearm unless you are prepared to use it.

The Way was always dead set against helping the unfortunate. That's a fact, Jack!! The company line was always that the best way to help anyone was to get them into PLAF (The Wonder Class). I can't tell you how many times I heard the "teach a man to fish" scripture used to rationalize our uncharitable practices. Your neighbor has fallen on tough times?--Have them sign "The Green Card". Here's the cold hard truth. TWI was a devious multi-level-marketing scheme. (A pyramid scheme. Get it?) Our function was two-fold, send money down a one-way street to fuel the lifestyles of a few top dogs and recruit others to do the same. In return, we were promised God would give us a life that is "more than abundant". They were promising to deliver something that wasn't theirs to give.Call it tithing, call it abundant sharing, call it a token of commitment, call it Yo Mama for all I care. Tell me honestly you never heard a variation of this line: " If you don't give at the very least a tithe, you will be outside the hedge of protection and God's hands will be tied in regards to giving you good health and prosperity." Buying Blessings sounds like a pretty darn good description of what life in The Way was really all about.

Ummmm----- Chitlins don't come from chickens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitterlings

page 38 (CSBP) "God will open the windows of heaven the moment you lay your tithe at 'the apostle's feet'."

CSBP uses the term "net" but offers an example that is clearly "gross" (no pun intended.) Page 36 "Do you know what the tithe is? It is one-tenth of your net income. If you have earned a dollar, you have ten cents for the Lord. If you get $10.00, you have $1.00, if you have $100.00, it is $10.00." I, too, heard the same rationalization for why it must be based on gross income and not net. Here is more. page 38 "God will open the windows of heaven the moment you lay your tithe at 'the apostle's feet'." page 39 "Don't pray for prosperity if you don't tithe".

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-09/...nt_10126522.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2008...ent_7068582.htm

Thanks, Dooj It sounds very interesting. We did something vaguely similar in Fellow Laborers. We had a co-op that we called Manna.Of course, it was very small scale and only for our group of 50. Participation was mandatory. I think it cost something like $6/week back in the mid '70's. There was a menu for the week that detailed specific meals for each day. The menu included all the necessary recipes and instruction for those meals. Most of the logistics (shopping, sorting, pick-up, etc.) was handled on the same night every week, though some items, like mill ground products, required addition attention. We also grew, canned and stored lots of our own vegetables. Despite some of the crazy things we did In F.L., this is one thing that actually had a good level of success.(IMO) It took some real mental discipline, though, because every meal was predetermined and portion controlled. If you like being able to exercise spontanaety, it's not for you. I ate a lot of things I never want to eat again and sometimes the portions were dreadfully inadequate. But, all in all, it always had nutritional value. If I were retired, I might consider volunteering my time to one of the church distribution points for Angel Food Ministries.

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=18367

Do you mean like this stuff? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Vincent_Peale

Well, for one thing, it's built around the bogus "law" of believing. (As if that isn't enough.) It focuses on utilizing OUR spiritual ability. Is God on vacation or something? We were being instructed to "condition" our thinking to be in harmony with "The Word". Whose version? In other words, "If you are in doubt about what The Word says, no sweat, we'll tell you." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is a vital component of the RM class that I posted on another thread: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is an abbreviation of page 15 of The Renewed Mind class------1974 To the end that you apply all 6 of these laws you will manifest the more abundant life. If you are deficient in applying one law you will not manifest the more than abundant life. 1. The Law Of Believing: As you believe, you receive. Believing appropriates results. 2. The Law Of Learning: No one can go beyond where he is led. We can never arise in our walk until we superabound in our study of The Word. Receive The Word with meekness. 3. The Law Of Using Knowledge: The knowledge of The Word must be applied in your life in order to retain it. 4. The Law of Effficiency: We must use what we have with haste and precision. We must be efficient in our operation. Redeem the time for the days are evil. 5. The Law of Love Love activates: Until we walk with the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation, we will never be activated. Love binds the body together. 6. The Law of Giving and Receiving: As you give, expecting nothing in return, your rewards will be great. God will bless you beyond what you have given. As you give, you receive. Now, someone may say, "Well, this does not specifically say ABS". No, it doesn't. But remember that giving to any cause or organization, be it with money or time, was absolutely off-limits in TWI. Thus, it is axiomatic that this reference to giving and receiving is slanted heavily toward giving to TWI. Miss this one point and-----No abundant life for you, pal. --------------------------------------------------------- Think what we tell you to think and------keep that ABS flowing.

For what it's worth, I haven't really seen many people blaming God for choices they made. I do think, however, that The Way needs to share in the blame for choices we made because many of those choices were based on false and misleading information they supplied. (refer to "The Renewed Mind" thread for a discussion of who was in control.)

Some of the love and camaraderie was very real--------and some was dreadfully fake. The real stuff is what bonded us together, not the organization or its twisted doctrines. I suppose one could draw some sort of analogy to a friendship that is forged in prison.

Here is something from page 5 of The Renewed Mind class that somewhat approaches a definition of The Renewed mind.----1974 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As you build your mind, understanding and heart, you build your believing---your strength or ability in the personal life. When your ability is built on The Word, it builds to the point of utilizing your spiritual ability which is all powerful. According to the scientists, neurons form a chain in the brain to remember information. By conditioning our minds through the renewed mind process we can correct imperfect chains or patterns in the brain. Actors, actresses, successful sportsmen, and others have become adept in their fields by practicing their role or game before hand in their minds. By continually feeding our minds on God's Word and practicing The Word in our minds, we become transformed (transfigured) by the renewing of our minds because our knowledge, thoughts, and habits have been conditioned. As this new material displaces the old, a new understanding is formed which in turn purifies the heart and builds additional strength to believe and get results. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So much for the argument that there was no thought conditioning taking place in TWI. That's the explicit purpose of this entire class!

Here is an abbreviation of page 15 of The Renewed Mind class------1974 To the end that you apply all 6 of these laws you will manifest the more abundant life. If you are deficient in applying one law you will not manifest the more than abundant life. 1. The Law Of Believing: As you believe, you receive. Believing appropriates results. 2. The Law Of Learning: No one can go beyond where he is led. We can never arise in our walk until we superabound in our study of The Word. Receive The Word with meekness. 3. The Law Of Using Knowledge: The knowledge of The Word must be applied in your life in order to retain it. 4. The Law of Effficiency We must use what we have with haste and precision. We must be efficient in our operation. Redeem the time for the days are evil. 5. The Law of Love Love activates. Until we walk with the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation, we will never be activated. Love binds the body together. 6. The Law of Giving and Receiving As you give, expecting nothing in return, your rewards will be great. God will bless you beyond what you have given. As you give, you receive. Now, someone may say, "Well, this does not specifically say ABS". No, it doesn't. But remember that giving to any cause or organization, be it with money or time, was absolutely off-limits in TWI. Thus, it is axiomatic that this reference to giving and receiving is slanted heavily toward giving to TWI. Miss this one point and-----No abundant life for you, pal.

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/cultsthe.htm http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/tw_new.htm http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/rsr_buyBlessings.htm

I wouldn't say you necessarily feel anything. I mean, you can do it while you drive a car or cook breakfast or whatever. We were supposed to draw mental pictures of what we wanted or needed (must have them parallel, dontcha know?) and concentrate on the picture while we SIT. The thing is, while you are doing that, your brain shuts down part of its ability to ponder critical thought. I have cited some scientific studies that show that to be true in previous posts but don't have reference to them at the moment. I think it maybe differs from meditation in that sense. But, having never "meditated" I couldn't say for sure. One thing that just occurred to me is that it could possibly facilitate false perception. For example, we were supposed to pray (SIT) for leaders, especially VPW. While you are doing this, you maintain a positive image of that person even if you might know something about them that is less than desirable. It may explain, at least to some extent, why some people had a tendency to put him (VPW) "on a pedestal". That's how they pictured him as they spoke in tongues through the day. All in all, I would have to say I never felt like I was in some kind of trance while I SIT. In fact, one time I had a job that involved me working all by myself the entire day. (a physical type of job) I would picture people and things and situations as I SANG in tongues to the melodies of popular songs. No one was there to hear me so why not, I thought. At the same time, I was actively doing my job. I don't know if that makes sense. Maybe its kinda like "whistle while you work". The only time I might have felt lost in thought was when I would sit quietly, close my eyes and do my "lift list". That's a list of people and things and situations you are supposed to pray for. VPW was always supposed to be at the top of the list.

John From the descriptions, it all sounded very foreign to me. Then I read the symptoms. Yikes!!! I answered positive to 64% of the symptoms. (of the depersonalization) A big one for me is having an inordinate response to abusive authority figures. It's like somebody flips a switch and I'm off and running. I watch myself "from the outside" and it's like watching someone else responding. It's kinda like what the WWII Vets I've known describe as "shell shock". I'm getting much better at recognizing it and stopping it. As to the trance thing: You must first understand that what TWI did with speaking in tongues (SIT) may be different from some other groups. TWI taught that you should SIT silently to yourself. (NEVER out loud unless it was part of a ritual called a "Believers' Meeting".) Furthermore, they coupled it with the pseudo-law of believing. You were supposed to SIT while drawing a mental picture of what you desired or wished to pray for. (Perfect Prayer) We were told to do it much, much, much. So, if you found yourself stuck in a grocery store line or freeway grid-lock, you were supposed to picture various people and things while you SIT. We did this every chance we got. There is a list of 12 benefits that this supposedly facilitates. I won't bore you with the list but one of the significant "benefits" is that is supposed to be a direct communication between you and God. No small change to someone who is seeking to understand spiritual matters. That's my 2 cents for now