waysider

I think it must be like those cement yard geese that people dress up. Same goose---different outfit.

R.I.PSnooks Eaglan

I especially liked the GVT (Global Voice Translator). Eliminates the need for tongues with interptetation.

VeePee turned it into a pretty cushy living like A-Rod, too.

Here's a question that seems to have been lost in the shhh----uffle. "Do you suppose Wierwille ever considered that summoning someone to HQ, from another state, for the purpose of having sex with them, might violate The Mann Act?"

I don't think that approach will phase them, Brush. At least not if they still resemble the TWI that I remember. First, because Church history holds no particular place of importance in "TWI thinking" other than to delude themselves into thinking they are reliving history by living like the people in The Book Of Acts. In reality, they are living an antithesis. Secondly, a large part of TWI doctrine is to discount and disregard what they call "worldly wisdom". This was actually a big deal in the original PFAL class. They consider philosophy to be a "counterfeit", meant to lure people away from the genuine. Believe me, before I got into TWI, I was very interested in many of the same writers as you, as we have discussed before. They were very skilled at showing me exactly where Nietzsche, Dostoyevsky, Camus, etc. were leading me away from "The Truth". Here's a little blip from PFAL: "Spiritual weakness and inability can be due only to improper spiritual food or neglect of the Word of God." (ie: You are spiritually weak because you read Nietzsche.) "Natural man or the flesh or the senses cannot receive or know God." (Now, Brushy, surely you want to receive and know God, don't you?) <_<

I'm not so sure I would go with the existence of God thing. That would probably lead you straight to a discussion of speaking in tongues. (Unless that's already a part of the game plan)

In case you missed it, I never said the Advanced Class represented my doctrine. You are not challenging my "doctrine" in the least bit. This so-called class is something Mr. Wierwille committed to writing as an example of what he presented to be Truth. Not a dissertation on current events at HQ, but rather, never ending, never changing Truth. If he didnm't intend for it to have any permanence, he should not have committed it to print.

So then disregard the actual page number. I only listed it as a reference convenience. Mine is the 1971 version. Look at whatever page you have that lists the functions of 14 different spirits. These include Anti-Christ, Bondage, Error, Fear, Jealousy, Slumber, Emulation, Strife, Whoredoms, Perversion, Envy, Infirmity, Leviathan and Iniquity. Not only are they listed, there are notes detailing what he verbally expounded about each one. If what he was teaching was merely a reflection of current events in TWI and not some Divinely given gem of Truth, it wouldn't seem to have much lasting value, would it? Now, if you are saying he was wrong when he taught this, his credibility isn't really worth a hill of beans, anyhow, is it?

So you're saying that Wierwille taught us something inaccurate at The AC?

It's been a really long time since I heard this but I think he called it a "spirit of whoredoms" in the Advanced Class. It's on page 20 of the syllabus. (Hosea 4: 6-14/ 5: 1-4) I wouldn't swear that to be a correct interpretation of what he said. That's how I remember it, though.

I'm not sure why but it reminds me of old song by The Stones

And this, of course, is the essence of my somewhat rhetorical question, "Was Jim Jones ever found guilty of his crimes at Jonestown?" He was never pronounced "Guilty" in a court of law and yet it would be an obvious error to presume he was "innocent".

No guesses yet? Sheesh! We're already half way to Sunday!

"International law" didn't prevent the conviction of Larry Layton. Conviction of Larry Layton Larry Layton, brother of author and former Peoples Temple member Deborah Layton, was convicted in 1986 of conspiracy in the murder of Leo Ryan.[43] Temple defectors boarding the truck to Port Kaituma warned about Larry Layton that "there's no way he's a defector. He's too close to Jones." [44] Layton was the only former Peoples Temple member to be tried in the United States for criminal acts relating to the murders at Jonestown.[45][46] He was convicted on four different murder-related counts.[47] On March 3, 1987, Layton was sentenced to concurrent sentences of life in prison for "aiding and abetting the murder of Congressman Leo Ryan", "conspiracy to murder an internationally protected person, Richard Dwyer, Deputy Chief of Mission for the United States in the Republic of Guyana", as well as fifteen years in prison on other related counts.[48] At that time, he would become eligible for parole in five years.[49] On June 3, 1987, Layton's motion to set aside the conviction "on the ground that he was denied the effective assistance of counsel during his second trial" was denied by the United States District Court, of the Northern District of California.[49] After spending eighteen years in prison, Layton was released from custody in April 2002.[50] source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Ryan

GarthP2000 said: 2) As a classic precedence illustrating this principle, would Adolph Hitler's crimes against humanity also be subject to said principle? (Why won't you deal with that point?) Remember, he wasn't charged either, and since what people say he did amounted to crimes, ... against humanity, ..... WD responded: Adolph Hitler is not an American he is not subject to our legal standards his case is different from VP's if you wish to make a case for him feel free. Relevant point being stressed by WD: Adolph Hitler is not an American waysider responded: Was Jim Jones ever convicted of his crimes at Jonestown? (He was an American.) WD responded: It was your example site your own definitive answer why should I do your work? waysider responded: Simple. You're the one who protested that the prior Hitler example was not valid based on the fact that he was not American. Now, when I give you an example of someone who IS American, you suddenly have a new excuse to evade the issue. Do you really think that if you remove something two steps from its original context that people won't see you are dodging the issue? WD responded: Had you done your research you would see that the crimes you speak of were also not committed in America ,trying to scrape the bottom of the barrel in other countries to prove your point on how it somehow applies to law here is beyond me. No issue dodging the laws in Guyana are not applicable here.You can persue your point on your own it does not apply to this subject. ****************************************** Point of note: WD's original objection to Garth's inquiry was that Hitler was not American. WD was supplied with an example of someone who was American but found a new excuse to avoid answering the following question: "Was Jim Jones ever convicted of his crimes at Jonestown?" *************************************** Sounds like dodging to me but that's just my opinion. edit: Not only was Jones an American, his victims were, as well. (Likewise for Leo Ryan, the elected U.S. official whose assassination was facilitated by Jones)

Here's another issue to contemplate. Do you suppose Wierwille ever considered that summoning someone to HQ, from another state, for the purpose of having sex with them, might violate The Mann Act?

Simple. You're the one who protested that the prior Hitler example was not valid based on the fact that he was not American. Now, when I give you an example of someone who IS American, you suddenly have a new excuse to evade the issue. Do you really think that if you remove something two steps from its original context that people won't see you are dodging the issue?

is correct!(It was a big hit for Philadelphia group The Trammps.) Your turn, George.

No. No warnings. There was no sense that it was something we shouldn't be doing. In fact, it seemed like the only right thing to do in a world that was changing at break-neck speed all around us. Society was in the midst of a chaotic upheaval. There was a very unpopular war going on. Cultural mores were being redefined at an unprecedented rate. Everything was very loose and spontaneous at the local levels. It's probably hard for you, being born into it, to comprehend because the organization you know and the one many of us remember from the 1970s are like night and day. (At least on a superficial level)

Burn ,Baby, Burn

If they don't admit that TWI had problems, they can excuse themselves from being duped like the rest of us.

HeeHee! Not really. I think you could probably trace this stuff way back to the early days. Wierwille didn't just wake up one day and suddenly decide to become a sexual predator.It's a chronic condition. Looking back on my time in FLO, in the mid '70s, I realize now that it had to have already been going on then at the HQ. level. It makes me feel like I got played for a chump. Not because I didn't participate in the shenanigans but because he used our lifestyle to camouflage his own. I mean, here we were, a group of young, virile adults, signed to a 2 year commitment to live a life of alcohol and drug free celibacy. (celibacy for the singles) Meanwhile, we saw signs that indicated less than honorable things, such as Wierwille's then-rumored alcohol abuse, might be going on but were reproved for even THINKING such things. Can't be thinking evil of "the household" now, can we? We must be spiritually weak and lacking sufficient renewed mind to entertain doubts.(cough) The WOWs were publicly, advised at WOW training, to "keep it in their pants" during their WOW year. In CF&S, Wierwille advised the women to learn how to satisfy their own needs rather than succumb to temptation. (He said men didn't need to "learn" this.) In retrospect, I think all this stuff was a smokescreen he used because he knew our lives were much more transparent to the public than his was at HQ. So, if his life came under scrutiny, he could point at these things as a ready made rebuttal. Just my opinion.

Perhaps even more significant is that it would be costly. With an ever shrinking "customer base", they need to use what's left prudently if they ever plan to tap it as a retirement fund.