waysider

David The forum is below "Tics & Tacs". There is nothing in it yet.

No thanks. I have a cellar full of my own crap. Of course, mine really is just a bunch of crap.

I never knew Donnie so I could be wrong in my perception of him. From all accounts I've ever heard from people who knew Donnie, his core motivations were pure. He was simply convinced in the message he was promoting and in his sales approach to "moving The Word". His efforts and motives were altruistic and philanthropic at their core. Meanwhile, Wierwille saw how effective this recruitment method was and latched onto it as a mass marketing tool. Wierwille though, had a much different agenda. He misinterpreted (or reinvented) this approach for very different reasons. Donnie's work (as well as others) was VPW's prototype for the WOW program. I think this was a mistake because, without the altruistic ingredient that Fug!t and others brought to it, the prototype was flawed. True, there were individual WOWs who shared this same mindset but they did not have the direct control of the program's direction that Wierwille had. Wierwille did not realize that the program was missing its main ingredient. It was a big miscalculation from a business standpoint---IMO

Likewise with the in-clusion of the graphic photographs that were accompanied with comments like, "Aren't her breasts just bee-u-tee-ful!" and a lengthy list of street terms for genitalia and sex acts that he chuckled and made light of. What exactly is "neutral" about showing photographs of various shapes of penises to 13 year old girls? And just so we don't deviate too far from the theological implications, Wierwille taught that the original sin was that Eve masturbated "and did eat, and gave also to her husband with her; and he did eat." He offered no scriptural verification. He said "Father showed it to me." (paraphrased)--- "You'll just have to trust me on this one." Then he took it a step further and said that masturbation was not acceptable for married people unless it was a mutual activity, because it could not give true release from sexual tension. I guess you were supposed to read between the lines. He also said "Intercourse is always a spiritual event." Who would be a better partner in a "spiritual" experience that the MOG, himself? He was setting the stage for his future indiscretions. My point is that he deliberately gave theological significance to sexual release.

It may not have been spiritually healthy but it kept the ABS flowing to P.O. Box 328------

I'm confident they wanted us to think it could happen to us.

Might as well do an infomercial for buggy whips.

I posted the following on the "Geer Paper/VPW Santization" thread. Rather than derail that thread, I am moving this thought to a new discussion. ********************************************************** "This whole discussion makes me wonder if there wasn't a specific point at which the organization imploded. I'm not talking about "spiritually" but rather as the business venture that it was. I'm thinking it had already crashed and these other events, such as POP, the loyalty letter, the no-debt edict, etc. were simply what followed. Think in terms of a contagious disease. There's an exact moment when the disease is contracted. That's what I'm talking about. Next there is an incubation, followed by symptoms and finally, the aftermath of any permanent damage the disease may have inflicted. So, what I wonder is, was that "moment" at the inception of the WOW program, the expansion of the Way Corps, the live class in 1977, the AC in 1979, the reinvention of ROA, or what? If there was such a moment, the sanitization idea makes a great deal of sense. It's the symptom treatment phase. Now we are experiencing the aftermath. Hopefully, we've built some immunity in the process." *************************************************************** My personal opinion is that the business was born when VPW ran that first BG Leonard class in 1953. It plodded along slowly until the late 1960s. Then, it experienced a large scale growth spurt when he abscounded the efforts of Doop and Heefner. It was well on its way to (business) success functioning as a grass roots effort. But then, Wierwille misinterpreted the efforts of people like Donnie F. and instituted the WOW program. I think he saw it as a way to facilitate large scale growth in a short amount of time. And, in fact, the program did generate some short lived success. But ultimately, I think this particular decision spelled the beginning of the end for any hopes of long term growth of The Way as an established business. Wierwille failed to see his error. Instead, he interpreted the short term, rapid growth as an indication of a good business decision so he intensified his efforts. Just my opinion---Yours may be quite different.

This whole discussion makes me wonder if there wasn't a specific point at which the organization imploded. I'm not talking about "spiritually" but rather as the business venture that it was. I'm thinking it had already crashed and these other events, such as POP, the loyalty letter, the no-debt edict, etc. were simply what followed. Think in terms of a contagious disease. There's an exact moment when the disease is contracted. That's what I'm talking about. Next there is an incubation, followed by symptoms and finally, the aftermath of any permanent damage the disease may have inflicted. So, what I wonder is, was that "moment" at the inception of the WOW program, the expansion of the Way Corps, the live class in 1977, the AC in 1979, the reinvention of ROA, or what? If there was such a moment, the sanitization idea makes a great deal of sense. It's the symptom treatment phase. Now we are experiencing the aftermath. Hopefully, we've built some immunity in the process.

Little Walter

Brown 25

The purpose of a man is to love a woman and the purpose of a woman is to love her man.

--------Simon and Garfunkel

May I presume you've never taken the time to give an honest look at Actual Errors in PFAL?

BUMP

As I see it, part of the problem in this discussion is the manner in which we are using the word "theology". In the context of this discussion, I believe we are referring to a particular comprehensive system of beliefs that Wierwille employed at a practical level. Individual parts of the whole may have been fine. But the whole package is contaminated by the parts that are not. Consider for a moment the current health concerns with tainted peanut butter. Is every ounce of that peanut butter tainted? Doubtful. But how do you extract the salmonella by itself and leave the peanut butter intact? Like a friend of mine is fond of saying, "You can't separate flea poop from pepper." The parts of Wierwille's belief system that promoted this thinking are like the flea poop in the pepper. They contaminate the whole system.He used the whole pepper shaker to spice his daily living standards. The pepper, though it may not itself have been contaminated, served as a vehicle to deliver the flea poop.Therefore, as a whole, his theology (belief and practices system) is hopelessly flawed.

Sorry Apparently, this one is not easily recognized from just one line. It's--- ----- The YardbirdsWould someone take the next one, please?

Education is a great thing. I think people should take advantage of as many educational opportunities as they can. Go to college if you can, even if it's community college. The purpose of college, after all, is to learn HOW to learn. You can do that at community college. With that said, though, formal education is not for everyone. One development that I have personally been witnessing lately is that employers are much more focused on what an employee can immediately contribute as opposed to assigning a value to a list of credentials. This is especially true in the trades and blue collar sector. People who have hands on skills seem to be able to find work easier than those with advanced degrees. I know of one PhD (engineering) who lost all his long term consulting contracts as a result of an economic downturn for his clients. And it's somewhat of a misconception that high school is free. In parts of rural Ohio, for example, student busing ceases at the high school level. High school students are expected to find their own way to school. Some of these kids live 5 and 6 miles away from the nearest high school. You simple can't walk or ride a bike down these dangerous country roads. There is no public transit. The kids have to pay other kids to transport them, get part time jobs to pay for their own transportation or rely on Mom and Dad . Many school districts have instituted a "pay to play" policy for sports, arts and other extra curricular activities. These activities are a vital part of a well rounded educational program. Many parents simply can't afford to keep their kids in these programs. Some of the urban areas are instituting dress codes that require the students to wear uniforms. These uniforms are not for street wear. I'm not judging the value of these uniform policies, I'm simply saying this is an added expense for cash strapped parents. None of this is meant to imply justification for dropping out of high school. My point is simply that school is not really "free". There are so many variables and individual situations, I just don't see where one blanket statement can sum it all up. that's my to too two cents.

Oldies CF&S was a grooming tool, a primer of sorts. Just because people sat through the class and opted for a moral lifestyle is no proof the class was valid. It's simply an indication that the class did not affect them negatively. Wierwille used the separation that Dispensationalism provides as a means to excuse his bad behavior. He rationalized that since he was living under grace and already in receipt of sonship rights, he could do whatever he pleased and it was OK. He used the separation of body, soul and spirit to rationalize abortion. In his thinking, the baby was not alive because it hadn't taken its first breath.( That's how he defined the beginning of life.) We're not trying to prove whether these beliefs (theology) are accurate or not. That is what the doctrinal forum is for. What should be apparent, though, is that he used his belief system (theology) to excuse deviant behavior in himself and other leaders. If a theology is constructed in such a manner as to promote unacceptable behavior, it's flawed. Plain and simple. In short, he used theology to get sex and never acknowledged the application of said theology was flawed. That is what sets him apart from some of the mainstream religious figures who have been publicly exposed in sex scandals. I'm confident there have been other cult leaders who have done similar things. That doesn't make it right.

I'm not sure I follow you. Although I'm a big believer in getting as much education as you can, there are people who beat the odds and succeed despite their lack of it. The next time you pass a Wendy's Restaurant, think of R. David Thomas. Click HERE and HERE and HERE

I think we're kinda saying the same thing, Taz.

Mr. B. Most of us in the early days were not thinking like that, aside from the hope of the gathering together. The emphasis on rewards at the bema, etc. came a bit later. We knew about rewards, of course, but it was not a driving motivation. I never heard that part about beating up unbelievers.

Wierwille Theology It is acceptable for a minister to engage in extramarital sex as long as said minister observes the theological premise of the Grace Administration. In other words, if the theology promotes the behavior and the behavior promotes the theology, the two are inextricable from each other. ************************************************ Wierwille used his pseudo theological tenets to rationalize deviant behavior. **************************************** " If that's the case, that'd mean truth is contingent upon someone's behavior at a certain point in time. Truth is truth, behavior is behavior" "Truth" isn't even a part of this discussion. If you want to debate the meaning of "Truth" I suggest you visit the doctrinal forum.

Wierwille didn't just teach his brand of theology and leave it up for grabs. He also taught how to apply it, both by virtue of formal instruction on how to misapply it to scripture and by the example he set with his perverted lifestyle, which was supposed to serve as an example to us in how to live according to this theology.. The theology and its application were intertwined and inseparable. Thus, his theology in its comprehensive form was flawed.

I doubt that many of us were thinking that far into the future.