waysider

Sounds like a pretty hip amphibian.

Our Froggie friend? Maybe I shouldn't ask.

I'm not sure but I think I saw him post somewhere that he had taken the CF&S class. He admits he was there at the train wreck but denies it ever happened. How does that work?

Consider this. Wierwille described the bestiality movies (one with a German Shepherd and one with a horse, if I remember correctly.) in CF&S. Thousands of students are witness to this fact. There were underage students in some of these classes. There is one GSC poster who has testified that he was 13 or 14 when he took the class. I personally ran a class that included a 13 year old female student. Somehow, Wierwille bewitched us into thinking there was some sort of redeeming value to be found in this so-called class. There was no redeeming value. In retrospect, it was wierwille exercising his little grooming/conditioning/desensitizing game. So, now, we have gone from someone saying, "Where's the evidence?" to a scenario that clearly demonstrates there were thousands of witnesses to, at the very least, a small but real piece of the decadent puzzle. Where is the evidence? It's been hiding in plain sight the whole time.

Hell, for that matter, some of the things posted are the types of things I saw myself but didn't understand. Like the incident T-Bone related involving the Way Corps night-owls. Wierwille openly displayed a lewd object to a 15 year old girl. It was right there in front of them but they didn't fully comprehend the significance of what they were witnessing.T-Bone wasn't the only one there at that event. Then there was the pornographic movie of bestiality that VPW displayed for various groups.I did not personally see this movie but I did, personally hear Wierwille describe the contents in the CF&S class. Then, there are the "first hand accounts" of Wierwille describing, again, in a closed group, the times he sexually molested his own daughter. These incidents aren't hearsay. They actually happened. How much more "first hand" does it get than that? Did you take the old CF&S class, John? If you did, you, yourself, must have heard him describe the bestiality movies. That means that even you caught a glimpse of what was going on and, like many of us, failed to realize the importance of what we were seeing.

Yes. But not just "any" post. Posts that recount first hand experiences, eyewitness testimony, and posts that fill in missing pieces of my own personal experiences.

We are stardust We are golden And we've got to get ourselves back to the garden ------Joni Mitchell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GiGUtZOi_I

Perhaps a brief musical interlude will shed some light on the matter.

Not only did mr. wierwille not have a "ministry", whatever it was that he did have was not "his". It was cobbled together bits and fragments of works of various people, who were virtually off the radar screen, in a pre-internet time and place. I really don't think that part was coincidental. Was it a "safe haven"? Yes------if you happened to be VP Wierwille.

I guess when VPW was hauling all those books to the dump (That's what he said in PFAL.) he must have forgotten to dispose of his works by Albert Cliffe. -------------------------------------- you say that TWI, who supposedly raped and killed and destroyed souls, is evil ------------------------------------------------ There is no "supposedly", John. These things happened. Closing your eyes and ears to them does not make them go away.

A learned man brought to this century a fresh teaching-that Jesus came that believers would have a more abundant life. The teacher taught steps to victorious living, which yield happiness, sufficiency, success and health-all of which are God's will for mankind. Positive faith, he said, brings about happiness and victory, while negative faith results in nervousness, failure and sickness. These effects must result, for this is a law of life. A person can achieve any good thing if he believes strong enough in it. If he prays believing he is now receiving, results are assured. A human being must overcome his tendency to limit God by keeping God's power latent within. The teacher summed up his steps to victory-"let go and let God!" The "Doctor" explains the source of his teachings: "Many of the subjects I have given in my Bible class have been dictated to me by my loved ones long since passed on... (that is, dictated via "my psychic work." (1) Although Victor Paul Wierwille would reject mediumship as his source of doctrine, he would unquestionably agree to the teachings listed above. In fact, Wierwille infers that Albert E. Cliffe, the author of these tenets, was once his mentor. Cliffe was one of those who "were guests of Dr. Wierwille's local congregation" during the 16 years as pastor when Wierwille "searched the Word of God for keys to victorious living."(2)

If Wierwille did realize Cliffe's alarming beliefs about God, man and Christ, he was knowingly exposing his Ohio congregation to possible great spiritual harm. If Wierwille did not realize Cliffe's non-Christian beliefs, he did not probe Cliffe on doctrinal matters or was theologically naive. In either case, Wierwille did adopt at least one key Cliffe teaching- that positive faith (which Wierwille termed "believing faith" in 1957 and "believing" beginning sometime after 1962) will yield health, happiness, prosperity and success while negative faith (fear) must result in failure, sadness and sickness because this is a law under which every human on earth lives. Wierwille's teaching and terminology closely mimic Cliffe's, as a comparison of their works indicates.(11) While Cliffe heads each chapter of Let Go and Let God with a brief Bible verse he does not attempt to prove his teachings with Scripture. Wierwille, on the other hand, attempts to illustrate from Scripture his theory of "believing" thereby "Christianizing" this spiritist's ideas.(12) One thing is sure. Wierwille's source for his teaching on believing was neither the Holy Spirit nor the Word of God, but Albert Cliffe, who spiritually stood far outside the bounds of biblical Christianity. SOURCE

You have a good point.

So, then, why should anyone knowingly put their life in a situation that has proven to be dangerous----like The Way?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBRaO5rx3hU&feature=related

In order for anything or place to be a "safe haven", it must meet two basic requirements. It must be "safe" and it must be a "haven". The Way was neither of the two. Well, alright, it was a "haven", of sorts, for the unscrupulous but it certainly wasn't "safe".

It was a distraction. Spend all your time obsessing over the "piddly-diddly" and you'll be too busy to notice what's really going on.

When I first got in, all I heard about was how much everybody "just loved me" and how they thought I was so wonderful and special. And, you know, when I finally left, I'm not so sure anyone even noticed I was gone. (So much for "We sure do love you.") That's not how a real family operates. Even when they're totally disappointed in you, most families will still stick by you and try to help you see things through. And, even though there were some genuinely good people involved with The Way, in the large sense, the organization was nothing but a bunch of "fair-weather" friends. (And the weather was always fair when "green cards" were being signed.)

As I moved into looking at various thread discussions, one of the first ones I read was the L.E.A.D. thread. That was definitely an eye opener, to say the least.

I do want to make it clear that I don't necessarily think it's wrong to do that. Speaking from my own experience, though, I found it necessary to read as much as I could before I really even knew what I wanted to say. I think I must have read and read and read for about a month before I ever posted. Heck, I even read the entire PooP paper----and lived to tell about it.

Jesus wept.

I suppose a sub topic might be explored in trying to understand why some people feel compelled to ignore the rudamental information before participating.

It occurred to me recently that many times when new people arrive here, they go straight to the forums and ignore the various materials on the home page. One such example is the piece on actual errors in PFAL. So, rather than doing the usual "bump", I thought it might be interesting to start a fresh thread with a link to the article. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/editorial/editorial-items/actual-errors-in-power-for-abundant-living.html And the discussion it stirred.

Oh, and there was the whole craze with custom Bible covers. Especially ones with a HS dove on the front. Wouldn't it have been cool to have one with Balaam's azz?