waysider

Ahhhh....It's good to see you back in form, Mr. T-Meister.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcHlHk27noM&feature=related

Does anybody really know what time it is? (Does anybody really care?)

The only Terry Kath I'm familiar with is THIS one. I remember Tommy Crabb, though.

An impossible dream........not unlike Don Quixote.

Nowadays, I hear people saying they have "issues". No you don't You have frickin' "problems". Call a spade a spade, for cryin' out loud.

I truly think Donnie F. believed that what he was doing was beneficial. Hell, there was a time when WE believed that what WE were doing was beneficial. I think he got conned like the rest of us. But, he seemed to be genuinely concerned with really helping people. Not like a certain guy who pretended to be a "Dr.", who was more interested in helping himself.

Oh, the "empties floating by" expression goes waaaaaay back. People were already using that when I "got in" in 1972. Yeah, "unbelievers" were viewed as empty clay vessels, devoid of any life, except for they breath-life they exhibited. The "empties floating by" expression was used to conjure up images of empty bottles being carried down the river, at the mercy of the current. edit: (It's a bastardization of the scripture that says "We have this treasure in earthen vessels.")

Nah. He hasn't signed up even one person here for PFAL. That's the main goal of W&U, remember?

I'm not so sure I would agree with that. (The part about being a good one, that is.)

Wow! Answer a question with a question. Now where have I heard that before? Oh, yeah, now I remember, it was in the witnessing and undershepherding class. Page 11 Session VI 3. Answer a question with a question. This is an art. They don't understand what we represent yet. John, this is what you said a on the aforementioned thread ( see:Was VP a good man?). ............................................................................................................. "Got a ride from a guy at least 50. He drove me to the freeway, then drove a mile past the freeway during which time he started masturbating, turned to me and asked me to "help him". I said no. He said you never did this? Oh, you don't know what you're missing. Then he let me out. Next ride was also from a guy at least 50 accompanied by a 12 year old boy. I haven't slept much since leaving MI. He gives me beer, says I can rest up at his place just off the freeway. Turns out to be 20 miles off the freeway down a lot of dirt roads. Foreign country. Foreign language. He said I could sleep in a single bed near the entrance door. Next thing I know the guy's in bed with me feeling on me kissing me. I froze. The 12 year old boy is right in the next room. My life was never in danger but in my mind I'm freaking out. I jump up and weakly demand that he take me back to the highway. He taunts me, says aren't you afraid someone might rape you? But he takes me back." ...................................................................................................... You haven't answered my question at all, John. But, since you insist on misrepresenting my question by introducing a flawed analogy, I feel it is significant to point out that the incident you posted, though of a serious nature, is, in fact,not rape. Do you even understand what rape is? Apparently not.

More importantly, what made him such an authority on a culture that existed so long ago? Would someone in New York City, 2,000 years from now, be able to claim to be an authority on 21st century customs in New Orleans?

Some led by example in a good way. Some led by example in a bad way. Unfortunately, the ratio of good to bad was unbalanced.

Ever notice there are some familiar names that NEVER seem to come up on the threads about abuse? Names like George Jess, Ray and Vera Kaderly, and Mal George, to name just a few. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Distraction and diversion, geisha. Those are two of the key materials John favors when building a soap box.

7th corps, 10th corps, 11th corps---Do you see where I'm going with this? That's 5 corps years right there. Where was this great "spiritual awareness" they claimed to have? They watched it happen for five years (at least) and still didn't see the handwriting on the wall? More like they saw it and just didn't care. It doesn't take one ounce of "spiritual perception" to understand the severity of what was going on . It just required a little common sense and compassion. I don't think they had either----especially the latter of the two.

Without trying to sound too cynical, I pose the question: What did Wierwille ever do that could be construed as an example to follow? How about Howard Allen? Seriously, what,specifically, did they ever really do that people could pattern their lives after?

"I could use the same argument when sex abuse victims tell their stories. I could say that in India it's still possible for a husband to find his wife not pleasing and have her burned. That twi sex abuse is small stuff compared to that." Yes, you could use that argument. You would be relying on a flawed comparison, though. First, because the issue of wife abuse in India is not the topic of discussion. Even though this topic is a serious one, introducing it into a discussion of sexual abuse in The Way is a bit of a Red Herring. It's important, yes, but, not relevant. It's a distraction. Secondly, it serves little purpose other than to minimize the seriousness of what took place in The Way regarding sexual abuse. Sexual abuse in The Way was/is a very serious matter and should be treated as such, not rationalized or compared with something unrelated. Have you ever been raped, John? Men do get raped, you know. By other men. But,my guess is that you have not. Because, if you had, I don't think you would be so quick to minimize the physical pain, loss of self confidence, sense of unworthiness and mental anguish that accompanies it. I don't think you would want anyone calling it "small stuff" in comparison to anything.

I hitch hiked a lot in the '60s and saw first hand how dangerous it can be. I had a few close calls myself. So, it didn't really surprise me too much to learn of some of the tragedies that happened in TWI. What surprised me, or rather, disgusted me, was to learn how unconcerned upper management was with the whole issue of safety. When terrible things happened and were brought to their attention, they plowed ahead with their ill conceived programs, undaunted by reality.

"The Dr. is out. He'll be right back with more demented music."

Attention, all those who extol the value of the warm, fuzzy feelings you remember! The upper management of The Way did not share in your sentimentality. It was a business, geared toward one goal----generating a steady flow of suckers who were willing to increase their bottom line. Let me give that to you in a literal translation according to usage.....They didn't give a rat's azz what happened to you out there, as long as what you were doing had potential for enriching the coffers.

Way HQ is in Ohio. Wierwille spent his entire life in Ohio. Should it have come as a surprise to him that hitch hiking is illegal in most parts of Ohio and has been for decades and decades? L.E.A.D. participants were instructed to only stick their thumbs out on the on-ramps. Why? Because leadership KNEW it was illegal to hitch ON the interstate. That's right. They KNEW hitch hiking was illegal unless certain loopholes in the law were manipulated. They were thumbing their noses at the law of the land. For a supposedly Bible-centric organization, they seem to have been abysmally ignorant of the Biblical exhortation to follow the laws of the society in which one resides. Ignorant or unconcerned about following advise that was clearly written in the book they claimed to have mastered. And, when they were made aware of the tragic situations that were happening because of this policy, they coldly turned their gaze the other direction and blamed the victims, rather than accept responsibility for their flawed directives. They had less "spiritual perception" than a pet rock.

Dr. Scholl's has done more for me than both of them put together.

Creative criticism This is called a straw man fallacy, John. -------------------------------------------------------- Straw Man Fallacy Explanation A straw man argument is one that misrepresents a position in order to make it appear weaker than it actually is, refutes this misrepresentation of the position, and then concludes that the real position has been refuted. This, of course, is a fallacy, because the position that has been claimed to be refuted is different to that which has actually been refuted; the real target of the argument is untouched by it. ---------------------------------------------------------- No one ever said or implied it was wrong to convert the tree into firewood. Rather than address the issue raised by the poster, you created a straw man argument. Most people here are familiar with the concept. This is one of the reasons people become put off by some of the things you write. Now, if you really want people to listen to what you say and give it serious consideration, it would be in your best interest to learn to recognize when you are doing this and take messures to correct it. Of course, if you already know all this and are doing this intentionally, I wish you luck----and a durable soap box.