waysider

Are you Jesus?

I have to put myself in the "not sure" camp. Remember, now, the question is NOT whether you believe there is an "afterlife". (Yes, I know the term isn't strictly Biblical but it spans a variety of belief systems and is widely understood to mean that dimension which lies beyond the moment when we shed our mortal coil.) I used to think I was sure of that aspect when I still bought into the whole concept of speaking in tongues being the proof, etc. It must have been in about 1976,77,78...not sure... a group of Way Corps stayed with FellowLaborers one weekend on their way to some work assignment. They were all fired up about some new teaching that was being done for the Corps about eternal rewards and crowns or trophies at the Bema or some such thing. They spoke in a highly competitive manner about who was going to get he biggest and best and most bejeweled crowns. It really creeped me out, especially because no one else seemed to be bothered by it. I had never thought of it that way before. To my thinking, up to that point, you gave of yourself because it was what you chose in your heart to do. Doing the "right" thing, simply because you perceived it to be the right thing, not because you expected remuneration. In fact, my Mother, whom some of you knew personally, taught us when we were little kids, that to give because you expected something in return was a form of selfishness. I mean, isn't that why we all joined together for the FellowLaborer experience? Apparently not! That was a shocker. So, here I am in the sixth seventh decade of my life and it seems like just yesterday that I heard my Mother imparting these lessons in living. I like to think I would continue to try my best to live by The Golden Rule, regardless of what may or may not lie beyond.... and not beat myself up so bad when I fail to do so. For me, that last part has always been the toughest.

Not my answer, Leiber and Stoller's answer. They wrote the song, not me. No one is asking you or anyone else to "believe" anything. The question is really not all that complex. Simply stated, it's this:, "If you removed the "afterlife" (for lack of a better word) from Christianity and left everything else intact, what effect would that have on your perceptions/actions?" Wierwille posed the same question in PFAL. But, in PFAL, he supplied an answer, as well. He said, "We would have had the best time going." The "here-after" is a major component of many religions, not just Christianity. How can one be able to embrace or understand their particular faith and not be open to discussion of it's major tenets?

Yes, I think for a lot of people, that's the $64,000 question.

Here's one that's almost a "freebie". Freedom ain't worth nothin' but it's free.

Ah! That's "Go Now", the very first (and most atypical) hit for The Moody Blues. I actually prefer the original, myself. Bessie Banks

As always, participation is voluntary. It's too be bad we (self included) didn't become this animated when VPW posed this same scenario in PFAL. (requisite TWI reference) Remember VPW saying this?: "If we get to Heaven and find out it isn't there, we will have had the best time going." Same idea, just structured as a statement rather than a question. Then, a couple sessions later, he tosses the "once saved, always saved" concept into the mix. He does so with a caveat, of course. "I didn't say it, you did." He fortifies it with scripture (John 3:16). Gee, wouldn't that be swell if Adolph Hitler was exposed to Romans 10: 9&10 sometime in his youth? Or maybe you could spend eternity side by side with Charles Manson. Hmmmmm. could it really be that simple? Spend one millionth of a nano-second believing something and you're guaranteed an afterlife? Somehow, I think there is something missing from the premise. Later, sessions 11 & 12, he tosses in some free coupons for the batteries...."Don't you want to speak in tongues?...It's proof in the senses realm you're going to Heaven and all Hell can't stop you." So there you have it. Leave everything else in. Take the afterlife out. How would that change your view of Christianity?

Pretty straight forward, really. Think of Christianity as a package-deal sort of product, with the batteries representing an afterlife. What if the package didn't include batteries? (afterlife)... Would you still buy the product without the batteries? ....Yes/No/Not sure...Why or Why not? It's really just another way of stating what we all heard VPW postulate in PFAL. ("If we get to Heaven and find out it isn't there, etc. etc.")

I dug it! How about this old one from way back when?

If a watermelon fell in the lake and there were no cats Paddy's pig wasn't around to push it back out, did the watermelon make a splash?

I realize some folks here are Christian and some no longer are. With that is mind, feel free to adjust the verb tense (past or present) as you deem applicable. So.... what if the batteries weren't included? What if everything about Christianity remained the same EXCEPT for the afterlife part? (ie: No promise of an afterlife, just things that apply to life in the here and now.) Is/was that a "deal breaker" as they say? Please, no Sunday School lessons. Just a simple "yes/no/I'm not sure" and a brief explanation of why (or why not)

People have told me I'm a dead ringer for George Clooney. (Mostly blind people...)

Ha! It appears to have been a Guinness..

Well, by cracky, I think there was!!

If a watermelon fell in the lake and there were no cats around to push it back out, did the watermelon make a splash?

Well, you gotta do what you can to save the watermelon. It's part of that first tier. Food, and all that.

Not even a nibble? Ok---Here's the answer. .....ArgentFREE POST!!!

"And Waysider I even said this next quote before you asked if I based my thinking on what I learned in PFAL. I may not be good with words like you all but I can read and I know you can to so why ask that from me?" That's a fair question. Let me back up a few quotes to put this in context. You stated: "Well, the good news is if you ever once for even a second believed in your HEART that Jesus was your Lord and that God raised him from the DEAD, you are going to be at the great gathering together whether you like it or not! And you will be thankful! And that's not VP, that's the Bible" I responded with: "If you're basing that on what you learned in PFAL, I suggest you give some serious thought to VPW's credibility." What you are presenting here is not what it says in the Bible. What you are presenting is what VPW "implied" it says in the Bible. VPW said a good many things that have been proven to be grievouly in error. Therefore, it only makes sense to examine this statement from a perspective outside of VPW's interpretation. In other words, his credibility is flawed on many issues. What makes you think this isn't one of them?

A big part of our lives is consumed by death, thinking about it, talking about it, worrying about it, preparing for it.... So, what if you kept everything else about Christianity the same but removed the afterlife aspect? Wierwille said, "If we get to Heaven and find out it isn't there, we will have had the best time going." The thing is, we didn't "have "the best time going". If we had, there would be no reason for a forum such as this. Many people have stated, though not on this particular thread, that one of the things about speaking in tongues that appeals to them is that "It's proof in the senses realm you're going to Heaven and all Hell can't stop you." It's even listed in the PFAL syllabus, in a somewhat round-about fashion, as being one of the benefits of speaking in tongues. But, what if you suddenly found out that might not be true? What if you were to find out that even Pagans speak in tongues and were doing so before Christ ever walked the Earth? What if speaking in tongues was, indeed, all the things listed in PFAL.....except proof of an afterlife. Death is a focal point, not only of Christianity, but many other religions as well. Maybe life, here and now, deserves more attention than the afterlife.

If you're basing that on what you learned in PFAL, I suggest you give some serious thought to VPW's credibility.

FellowLaborer duplex townhouses 6 Adults per side---There were about 50 of us. (not so bad, compared to Way Corps digs!) CLICK

Norm MacDonald commenting on death. CLICK

Bob Mathias, maybe? Or is it someone else I'm thinking of? Or was it Bob Richards?

I'm not sure how you figure I told anyone how and what they should believe. If you read my post again, without any preconceived notions of what my personal belief system might be, you might just find I said the opposite. If Baha'i works for you, keep it. If Catholicism works for you, keep it. If Buddhism works for you, keep it. It's when you start telling people your system is the only "genuine" system and theirs is "inferior" that conflict rears its ugly head. Why is it really anyone's business, other than mine, whether I walk through "the pearly gates" or not when it's all over? I try to live my life, as best I can, by The Golden Rule. (Every major belief system has a version of it.) If that's not good enough, then so be it. Let the chips fall where they may.