waysider

I never understood that thing. Is it supposed to represent how many times you posted in a day? If so, maybe I should ask this question a few more times.

Get a hold of yourself, man! Surely, there must be a retemory that will help you defeat this fit of rationale. I'm putting you on my lift-list, even as I type. I'm believing for you. Stay en garde. Lo Shanta La Maka See Tay....

We weren't supposed to be individuals. We were supposed to be likeminded. And, if some person or idea tempted us to express our individuality, we were supposed to "STAND!", which is Way-talk for renouncing our critical thinking skills.

What is this "retire" you speak of?

Maybe this is somehow tied to the idea of coming from dust and going back to dust. Dust is carried about by the winds and sometimes reaches amazing altitudes.`Did they, perhaps, envision the dust being carried away to some unseen locale?

Possibly the most practiced ceremony regarding death in our present culture is interment (burial). Contrast this to another popular option, cremation. Sometimes, with cremation, the remains are scattered to the winds. By Wierwille's definition, these people have literally gone to heaven. Likewise, some native American cultures placed their dead high on platforms where the birds of prey could consume them. This was so their spirits would soar through the heavens (plural). That part is open to debate, but, from a literal standpoint, if such a bird consumed a body and then flew through the air, by Wierwille's definition, that person went to heaven. edit I suppose one could argue that being in an aircraft would be considered being in heaven. However, in the scenario involving birds, the person, through the biological processes involved in digestion and absorption, actually becomes a part of the bird, not simply a passenger.

Yes, but the question is... Did "the ancients" consider anything above ground to be Heaven? I think "they" thought of it as being a place...not just any old place, but, a "specific" place. (either physical or spiritual) But, that's just my opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeIiVQQ_pMw&feature=related Do not stand at my grave and weep I am not there. I do not sleep. I am a thousand winds that blow. I am the diamond glints on snow. I am the sunlight on ripened grain. I am the gentle autumn rain. When you awaken in the morning's hush I am the swift uplifting rush. Of quiet birds in circled flight. I am the soft stars that shine at night. Do not stand at my grave and cry; I am not there. I did not die. ................Mary Elizabeth Frye

Marrakesh Express----CS&N http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPRLDPfOQwQ Gotta leave for work----free post

Curiosity got the best of me so I googled and youtubed. I must say, I have never heard this song before. I think it must have been popular at a point in time when I was busy drinking RC Cola and eating Moonpies from the Wayside Truck Stop. I didn't have access to a lot of the then-current music scene back then.....cool song, though.

I don't see this as a matter of establishing where God is or isn't. The issue at stake here is where did people of ancient cultures "perceive" God/Heaven to be. "Any place above Earth" just doesn't seem to fit the bill, as far as I can tell.

Psalm 14:2 New Living Translation (NLT) 2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the entire human race; he looks to see if anyone is truly wise, if anyone seeks God. From this verse in Proverbs, we see that people during O.T. times, thought of Heaven as being someplace that was "up" and that God resides there. Otherwise, how could He look "down"? But, does that mean that ANYWHERE that is "up" above Earth is Heaven? I don't see it saying that. It makes it sound more like Heaven is a specific place, like Neptune or Pluto. Both of them are "up" above the Earth's surface but, both occupy specific spacial locations, not just any old place above the Earth. In my opinion, I don't think that people from ancient cultures thought of Heaven as being any place above Earth. I think they thought of it as being a specific location. But, Wierwille's definition, like so many other definitions he propounded, was a very "convenient" way to deal with something that might appear contradictory or, at the very least, unexplainable. That was Wierwille's premise. Everything has to be explainable, has to "fit like a .....", even if he had to fabricate the explanation to make it fit.

Cosmology is a discipline that was first introduced by the Greeks, about 500 years before Christ. I think what Steve is saying (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong.) is that Wierwille incorrectly stated and/or portrayed how the ancients defined Heaven.

These are all moot points. A. No one said (or implied) that capital punishment is a violation of "vengeance is mine". I simply posed a related, philosophical question, which you have subsequently morphed into this inaccurate extrapolation. B. The issuance of a speeding ticket is not a usurption of God's authority nor does it have any bearing on the subject of capital punishment. I fail to see the correlation. C. Why are you comparing the "slavery" of Biblical times with the "slavery" of modern times? They are two very different things. In fact, why compare life imprisonment with slavery at all? D. How does the death of Bin Laden have anything at all to do with the topic of this thread? That's a blatant attempt to create a straw man argument. I know you have a great disdain for higher education but, maybe, you should at least consider taking some classes that will enhance your use of logic and debate skills.

Well, for whatever it's worth, VP (you know he wasn't really an extraterrestrial) Wierwille taught that heaven is anything above Earth. Yup, fits like a fart in a spacesuit.

(Tippin' the hat to Eddie Taylor, the man who taught Jimmy to play.

Thanks, Socks J.R. deserves a LOT more recognition than he has gotten---in my opinion. Along with Muddy and The Wolf (probably even more so), he had a very major influence on the British blues explosion of the '60s.

John, what is in question here is the matter of "authenticity". A degree from Harvard is an "authentic" degree. You are correct is stating it is the responsibility of the degree holder to produce something meaningful, not the degree, itself. The education required to obtain it, however, is often instrumental in the holder's level of success. On the other hand, a degree from TWI is not "authentic".It's not based on obtaining relevant, useful information. So, if the holder of a "bogus" degree produces something meaningful, it is likely to be in spite of the degree, not because of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARMSnUDgMhw

deleted by poster

This is one of the things that was so wrong about the whole thing. You weren't "allowed" to just say "No" to things you didn't really want to do. I mean, if my kid came to me in the middle of a big hockey game on T.V., asking for help with his bicycle chain, of course I wouldn't say "No". I blew the game off and helped him. But, that's how a family functions. These nimrods weren't my family.They were just some selfish bastages (that's the plural form ), making unreasonable demands on our time and good nature. We didn't owe them anything beyond common courtesy and they should have respected our decisions as individuals. But, of course, they didn't.

I'm still hung up on the vengeance thing..... "Vengeance is mine.", saith The Lord....But, capital punishment is, in essence, our way as a society of assuming that responsibility....What is the intended purpose of capital punishment? ... Is it to punish, seek vengeance, deter potential crime, ensure no further crimes will be committed... or what?....How have other similar societies dealt with the issue?

Congratulations. You've just stumbled on one of the peculiarities that helps define Way Theology.Here it is in a nut-shell: According to Way Theology, when a person is physically born, they are a two-fold being...body and soul. (soul being breath-life in way terms) When they become spiritually born-again, they acquire a third component, known as holy spirit (the gift), which is also known as Christ in you. Now, according to this whole concept, people who are only body and soul (as was the case of people in the O.T.) can not understand anything from a spiritual perspective, so, God had to talk to them in terms they could understand.... Here's where it gets tricky. Supposedly, since they couldn't understand spiritual matters, they could not comprehend the concept of a devil, since the devil is supposed to be a spirit being. So, these evil doings of God in the O.T. were really the doings of the devil but had to be explained in terms that could be understood by people with no spiritual perspective. Yeah, I know, it's complicated. But, that's how The Way explains why God appeared to do evil things in the O.T. edit: I'm not especially interested in a doctrinal discussion of this concept. I'm simply trying to give soul searcher, who was never in TWI, some perspective on how these things are seen within the framework of The Way.