waysider

Re: off-topic Obtuse, maybe, but not really off-topic. It's analogous. When The Rite of Spring was written, music and dance were experiencing their own period of "inerrancy" that the great masters of "times gone by" had "etched in stone", so to speak. Stravinsky thumbed his nose at all that and defied convention. His variation from musical "inerrancy" resulted in reactions that were violent and unprecedented. But, because he was willing to explore new territory, the course of musical history, as well as dance, was irreversibly changed. Re: What is "spiritual enlightenment", anyway? I don't know. Does anyone? So, suppose we take the word "spiritual" out and just talk about enlightenment in general. Enlightenment, on any subject, is not fostered by rigid adherence to an attitude of "inerrancy". Enlightenment comes with exploration, experimentation, reconsideration, expanding ones vistas of learning. Wierwille said, in PFAL, "You can never go beyond what you are taught." That's utter nonsense. If it were so, man would still be banging two rocks together and wondering what to do with the resultant sparks.

Yes. That has been documented and corroborated by eyewitnesses here on GSC.

I guess I really shouldn't laugh. It's just that it's kinda like watching a murder mystery when you already know "who done it".

Time is running out. Only a couple months left to sign up. If not now, when? If not you, who? CLICK (I wonder if they're going to throw darts at the map like they did in the original program. LOL)

I would never suggest you stop posting. I have neither the desire nor authority to do so. And, no, I'm not the discussion police. I'm not now a moderator and never have been. You've stated your position on this issue and I've stated mine. We don't agree. So what? Let's smoke a peace pipe and move on to the next discussion.

Geisha, you've had a burr under your saddle ever since the "Thus Saith Paul" thread. It's time to let it go. You say you asked a direct question, but, what you really did, in a back-handed way, was question my character and use that to devalue my position. That's an ad hominem, whether you realize it or not. I'm not offended by it. I do think, however, that you may want to recognize that you do this sort of thing quite a lot. It doesn't strengthen the position of whatever particular point you are trying to make..... I'm just sayin'.

It's irrelevant because you should judge the post on the basis of the points that were raised, not on who raised them.

Totally irrelevant. See: (RED HERRING.)....(GENETIC FALLACY)

I don't think it was intentional, Geisha, but, the arguments you presented are of the straw-man variety. (ie: No one ever said those things are NOT heinous.) Acceptance of inerrancy, though, is VERY high on the list because it opens the door for a limitless array of misrepresentation of the intended message. Some of those misrepresentations are what facilitate the sorts of behaviors you referenced.

It's Mr. Moonlight----FREE POST!

All roads eventually lead back to inerrancy, don't they?... "It all has to fit or the whole thing will fall apart."...Spend the rest of our lives trying to put square pegs in round holes...."No private interpretation"...Oh, heavens, don't you dare find any symbolism that isn't expressly stated.... Where would the fine arts be if everything always had to "fit", I wonder...."Oh, sorry, Mr. Stravinsky, we simply can not allow for this vile dissonance that defies current musical theory. It simply doesn't fit." Who wrote this fiendish Rite of Spring, What right had he to write the thing, Against our helpless ears to fling Its crash, clash, cling, clang, bing, bang, bing? And then to call it Rite of Spring, The season when on joyous wing The birds melodious carols sing And harmony's in everything! He who could write the Rite of Spring, If I be right, by right should swing! (Boston Herald, 1924) ............................................................................. Inerrancy is the scourge of spiritual enlightenment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGwDYBWEDSc

You came to me one summer night, and from your beam you made my dream,

I programmed my GPS for Hell and it sent me to Highway 29 and Wierwille Rd.

Maybe a family of irate, fledgling Robins plucked out his whiskers.

Most of all, what bugs me about that part of the weekend is not so much how I, personally, was shredded, but, how I had to sit there and watch the people I cared about being shredded. I'll tell you, I wanted to get out of my chair, walk out the door and keep on going. But, it was like I was glued to the chair or something. None of the FLO knew where the whole thing was going or if it was really right or wrong at the moment it was happening. (Retrospect is a byotch, ya know?) Plus, where was I gonna go? Out there in the middle of Podunk, U.S.A., a car with "Maypop" tires, 1/2 tank of gas and about a buck and a quarter to my name. Couldn't really go back home. It's a real feeling of helplessness. So, what were the options, besides trying to ride it out? And here's the thing. This was all BEFORE Momentus. So, it's not like nobody knew how volatile this sort of thing could be. They went into Momentus, KNOWING what this kind of thing could produce. I can't understand that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgvVFv2jiL0&feature=related

Steve said: The things Tocchini subjected us to were not mistakes, as some claim. They were carefully orchestrated, even though we participants were led to believe that it was all spontaneous. Just for starters, the trainers get together before the training begins and review the information about the people who have signed up, to figure out who is most likely to express vocal resistance to the training techniques. Then, when the training begins, and that person starts to raise objections, the trainers browbeat and harass and humiliate and bullyrag that person without mercy, until he's psychologically beaten into submission. This is all a show, to intimidate everyone else, so that nobody dares raise a voice against the training practices. The exercises were deliberately designed to confuse you. The whole experience was deliberately designed to wipe you out. BINGO!! (With us FLO, though, attendance was not voluntary and quitting the sessions was not an option.)

Michael I have never been through Momentus. As far as I can gather, though, it had to be similar to that INSANE weekend in FellowLaborers where we were "confined" to the BRC for most of the weekend, psychologically battered and verbally ripped to shreds in front of the whole group. One of the women literally snapped (mentally) and experienced a complete, seemingly permanent personality/identity change. Scary stuff. Maybe you weren't there. I don't know. Sometimes I forget that I was there an extra year and some of this stuff may have happened during that year. That year was very strange, to say the least. Having already graduated from the program, it was like I was looking though some kind of window, observing the "goings on" but not being a part of it. Like the invisible man or something. It was like watching a puppet show from behind the stage. That's the only way I can describe it at this moment.

I don't think it's a cognizant skill that one hones and perfects. I think it's more of an instinctive kind of thing that some people have and some people don't. Wierwille had it.

OK Male/61/A.A.S./Stopped smoking after PFAL in 1972...tried once again in 1981...just not my bag.

"I still respect him as father in the word" 1.) He wasn't your father. 2.) It wasn't "the Word".

I think your math guru might need to brush up on ornithology. The mother bird will continue to take care of the fledgelings for quite some time but will try to stay hidden so as not to attract predators.

Yeah, I see your point. Godel, on the other hand....Well, who really knows?