waysider

Even if they didn't explicitly teach that you could use believing to live "forever", they certainly expected us to conclude you could extend your life, appreciably, by believing. As Sky pointed out, that's one of the things that presents a huge dilemma when considering the demise of these men who were supposedly pillars of The Way, whose "believing examples" we were supposed to follow..

Singing kids' songs as a group: It's a type of indoctrination. Specifically, it serves to de-emphasize the sense of individuality and reinforce the sense of group. That's why it was frowned upon when people would ad lib motions or words (ie: express individuality). ................in my opinion edit: The "call and response" we so frequently did is also an indoctrination reinforcement tool. Q."Having done all, we do WHAT, class?" A."STAND!"

"Any volunteer may be dismissed at any time and/or program cancelled at sole discretion of those charged with oversight." ...................................................... Deja vu.

I've had the misfortune of working for supervisors that have that ability. They can move around stealthfully and hear 90% of a conversation before you even realize they're nearby. They're masters of micromanagement. It's my opinion they do this because they lack confidence in their own ability to manage legitimately.... I know exactly what you're talking about.

If I had a time machine, I think I'd like to go back (briefly) to The Great Depression/Dustbowl days and get a sense of how people envisioned the future of America. John Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath gives us a good glimpse into it but, there is still a certain sense of disconnect that comes with reading it in a book.

Well said.

Hey there, Roy. It's always good to see you. I don't think I would go so far as to say it's a lie. I think, instead, we might consider that the way it's been represented and promoted leaves a lot to be desired. It sounds to me like you've had a bit of an epiphany regarding innerrancy and fundamentalism. In order to put things in perspective, we need to acknowledge that the Bible isn't actually a "book", it's a collection of books and writings, some closely related to others and some not. Wierwille's idea of sequential ordering (doctrine, reproof, correction, etc.,etc.) is a man-made concept. When men sat down to compile the various writings, they had to decide on some sort of order in which to arrange them. That order was influenced by whatever agendas held sway over them at that moment in time. This is why Wierwille's idea of everything having to fit like a hand in a glove is seriously flawed. Everything isn't mathematically accurate or scientifically precise. There really are contradictions.... And, that's O.K. Having to constantly rationalize in order to eliminate contradiction, make things line up, fit together, or whatever term you choose to use, is not O.K, in my opinion. It's an exercise in futility. Some people call that "putting God in a box". It would have to be a pretty big box, one would think. The PFAL class is an attempt to put God in a box, a handy, dandy, all-in-one, packaged kit that includes all the parts. Administrations, to whom it's written, used before, figures of speech, and all the other so-called keys to understanding the Bible are really just man made contrivance. Maybe some of them serve a purpose. Maybe they don't. I don't know. They're still a man-made (prone to error) approach to the subject. Does that negate the "book", itself? Well, I don't know the answer to that. I think it does negate, however, the idea that everything has to fit together neatly or "the whole thing falls apart". When you accept that everything can't possibly fit together neatly, in one little box, it frees you to see things from a whole new, larger perspective.

Isn't there a scripture someplace about entertaining angels in their unner-wears?

It's a progressive, irreversible process that starts at conception. Therefore, you would have to be operating the so-called "law of believing", even at the moment you were conceived, to prevent the inevitable..

I don't remember if it was in a class or publication or what, but, there was a concept that circulated around The Way regarding longevity. It seems, according to Way theology, that one controlled one's own lifespan by virtue of the so-called "law of believing. In other words, you could theoretically live forever, as long as your believing held out. This is but another example of the kind of bad science that found a home in Wayworld. According to scientific studies (specifically those involving the Hayflick Limit) human cells have a finite number of times they can replicate. It's built into the DNA. If you can manage to stay out of the way of runaway dump trucks and steer clear of neighborhoods known for drive-by shootings, the cells in your body will eventually reach a predetermined point at which they can no longer replicate. At that point, they die. Sort of a built in clock. Not even the much heralded "law of believing" can persuade them to do otherwise. Hayflick Limit

I suppose they feel like pioneers or something, .Not hardly.

"To each his own said Farmer Jones, As he kissed Ol' Bossie , the cow."

Always good to see you, Oak. You really need to get yourself a hobby, though, to occupy some of that free time.

When I left for good, I felt tremendously guilty for having forsaken "the one true household". After finding GSC and finally coming to an understanding of what really took place, I felt kind of foolish for ever feeling guilty. (But, it was a good kind of foolish.) For goodness sakes, it was just a a 2 bit cult. Nothing "special" about it at all. There's no reason to ever feel guilty about walking away from a cult. If anything, maybe people who DON'T walk away should feel guilty for enabling the furtherance of the sham.

How would they know who you are? I mean, they always said there were no membership lists.

Here's a chilling thought... Factor out the people who are only there because they are REQUIRED to be and what's left?

I always suspected it was all in la familia.

Abusing one's authority (teacher, minister, therapist, etc.) to persuade someone to engage in sexually activity is rape...plain and simple. Wierwille had a serial history of engaging in this type of behavior. Ergo, he was a serial rapist by definition. People who choose to defend his actions usually aren't satisfied to simply excuse his behavior, they typically engage in a discourse that blames the victims, instead. I believe we have come to a point in time, as demonstrated by Shiftthis's comment, that we acknowledge Wierwille did these things. It's no longer a question of WHETHER Wierwille acted as he did but, WHY people continue to blame the victims in order to rationalize VPW's actions. This, perhaps, is the crucial question that needs to be answered by the various off-shoot leaders and proponents. Until they (off-shoots) can tackle that issue head-on, I really couldn't care less about their latest "research discovery" or so-called classes. For anyone who genuinely desires to more fully understand this process, I highly recommend Losing The Way.

This is the very essence of what GreaseSpot exposes. Nicely done!

.....and "the initiation into the inner sanctum" On a scale of 1-10, how lame was that?

It makes me both sad and angry at the same time.

The Advanced Class....don't get me started! You do everything you're supposed to do...home studies, all the classes, canvass for free class locations, string chairs, make the coffee, run twigs, ABS and whatever else. Then, you sit there in the BRC, with 250 other people and sink into a deep state of depression as you realize that (seemingly) you're the only one not "getting it".

Oh, my. He must have been torn with inner conflict as he sat through session 8, the session on sonship rights (righteousness included). Someone of lesser spiritual understanding might construe this to be a contradiction in Way Theology.

Didn't the Vicenheimer teach, in PFAL, that there are no degrees of sin? Oh, hold on a sec., this is "evil", not "sin". What was I thinking? I almost thought he had forgotten The Holy Word of Vic.

"....the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" The Treaty of Tripoli (1796) Now be it known, That I John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said Treaty do, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. And to the End that the said Treaty may be observed, and performed with good Faith on the part of the United States, I have ordered the premises to be made public; And I do hereby enjoin and require all persons bearing office civil or military within the United States, and all other citizens or inhabitants thereof, faithfully to observe and fulfill the said Treaty and every clause and article thereof. ...................................................................... Official records show that after President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate for ratification in May 1797, the entire treaty was read aloud on the Senate floor, and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification. Twenty-three of the thirty-two sitting Senators were present for the June 7 vote which unanimously approved the ratification recommendation. SOURCE