waysider

"And so it came to pass that Adam and Eve ate of the tree of inerrancy and a great darkness befell the earth.."

The side discussion has been enlightening but I'd prefer to resume a discussion of Genesis.

This would be a good launching point for discussion. Select something that appears to be an error (the flood account, for example) and compare it with the contrasting "truth".

The primary objective of The Way Corps, FellowLaborers and now S.O.W.E.R.S is this: 1. Acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness. What sort of success rate can a venture expect when it's #1 goal is to capture a unicorn?

More meta yada-yada-yada: "Reading The Bible as a source of truth" is not what this forum is designed for. It's designed for examining and discussing doctrines. (primarily, but not exclusively, those that relate to religious/spiritual matters) There are many cultures that have, as a collective belief, doctrine that is based on the same basic story presented in Genesis. Why restrict ourselves to only those cultures that are Christian? That seems rather limited and self serving.

WARNING!! Meta discussion may ensue. Should a doctrinal forum be limited to only Christian/Biblical doctrines? That seems a bit restrictive and counter-productive, in my opinion.

That's fodder for a good old-fashioned circular reasoning festival. :B)

Is it possible for something to be true without being a "spiritual truth"? Like the common sense advise in Proverbs. If you read the same thing in a bubble gum wrapper, would it still be good advise? I wonder about stuff like that.

Aside from scientific details, Wierwille had a flawed concept of the purpose of evolution. Evolution has no "end goal". It's a simply an ongoing process of survival. The specimens that are most adept at adapting to change are the ones that survive and propagate. The idea that Man is the highest form of evolution is deeply flawed. This, I think, is the aspect that frustrates deniers the most. edit: This may constitute an "actual error" because Genesis states that Man has dominion over everything. That's a lofty sounding concept but it's not founded in reality.

For whatever it's worth, The Way used to tackle evolution by teaching it was lateral rather than vertical and could not cross genus boundaries.

There are tons of things we can learn if we accept it to be allegory. The problem, however, is that fundamentalist thinking insists it is historical. That approach brings the learning process to a grinding halt.

....having sex is hardly any different than sticking your finger in someone's ear. Fortunately, I never had to chose between the two.

And all this "believe for this and believe for that" was based on a bunch of new-age mysticism that had about as much value as a hot pile of steaming monkey dung.

Now you've gone and done it. Your negative confession has sealed their fate. edit: :P

It was supposed to be your own fault because it meant you weren't believing correctly. It meant you were spiritually weak. No one wants to be accused of being the spiritually weak person whose negative believing is dragging down the twig, branch, training program, whatever. I know of people who literally died (as in left the planet) or came dangerously close to death, trying to believe their way out of serious health problems or physically dangerous situations. Then, after they died, they were publicly denigrated for failing to believe for deliverance. Isn't it bad enough their false doctrines caused people to die? Did they really have to lampoon their character, as well?

They had a real knack for twisting reality to keep people subservient. Here's an example: One year, when the Corps were on *the cleanse*, Wierwille gave an order that no one should leave the grounds. One young man decided to sneak into town for some snacks. Another young man (Gary D.) decided to go with him. They were involved in a horrific auto accident and, as a result, Gary D. died. Wierwille called the driver a murderer to his face and said that anyone who had cheated on the cleanse was complicit, as well. The spin that permeated the ministry was that Wierwille had received revelation that the event would take place and this is why the "don't leave" order had been given. This, of course, made a perfect vehicle for promoting the idea that the MOG knew better than you, despite whatever reality might have indicated. (The MOG always knows the best way to do anything.) In retrospect, it directly contradicts the section of the Advanced Class where it is taught that revelation is always for "profit" (ie: You won't get revelation that a plane is going to crash unless you are going to do something to stop it.) Everything about The Way was a matter of perspective. The important lesson to accept was that it wasn't YOUR OWN perspective that mattered. edit: Gary D.'s death.

Unless you have some really awesome friends, they're probably not going to stick around for three months, listening to patronizing babble. Once you've lost your original support system and replaced it with a pseudo-support system, you are much more vulnerable to their suggestions and demands.

It makes complete sense.

"That's the REAL wierwille in action. How dare you usurp HIS authority on the Word! What gives YOU the right, you snot-nosed punk, to think that you can research the Scriptures to rightly-divide them? Why, you're hardly wet-behind-the-ears and you think you can challenge my research work, my pfal foundation?" This is the scary part: Although his anger may (or may not) have been real, his rationale was having a concern for something he already secretly knew was bogus. It was an act. Part of the emotion may have been real but the character was contrived. edit: This is purely anecdotal. I've seen pathological liars become extremely agitated when you innocently question *facts* that don't seem to add up.

An overabundance of "straw bosses".

Last I heard, he's still alive and living in Brooklyn. :)

Somebody pass me a s'more.

It's not my intent to take this thread off-track or discuss the ins and outs of speaking in tongues. My point is simply this: We were led to believe we were spiritually special, noble if you please. It started with two essential ingredients of the PFAL class, believing and speaking in tongues. Take those two things out of the class and it just becomes another Sunday School lesson...a poor one, at that. But, like it or not, that's the thread that holds the whole PFAL series together. We supposedly had unique knowledge on these subjects that were hard or next to impossible to find anywhere else. Wierwille used that angle to set himself up as an authority figure and instructed a small inner circle of followers how to do the same. Meanwhile, we felt like we had an inside track that other groups only hoped for. We had an elitist, aristocratic attitude. We thought of ourselves as being spiritually noble. Well, we were THE BEST!, after all. Wierwille said so himself. edit: My apologies to chockful. I did a poor job of trying to make my point and didn't mean anything to be taken personally.

Well it was one of those kind of thoughts that runs through your head while you're waiting for the toaster to spit out your pop-tarts.

"wayside I still disagree with this. And you are stating it as fact." It is, indeed, a fact that what we called speaking in tongues (also called glossolalia) is not limited solely to Christians and has been around much longer than Christianity. This "fact" is irrelevant to your experience or mine. How people use it and perceive it is a whole other matter but it's lengthy historical existence is simply a fact, not an opinion.