waysider

The scripture is saying that the high priest had revelation Jesus would become the ultimate Passover sacrifice. Was it from God? We could go 'round and 'round. Does the scripture say it was from God? Yes. I think you have to temper these things with an understanding that John was written years and years after Jesus' lifetime. Probably 50 or 60 years after. And, it was patterned after the framework of the other 3 gospels, Mark being the first one written in approximately A.D. 70.

You could have put it in a sock and stuck it under the mattress and still had a better return.

2X

.... did he ever have a real dream that included God? No, I don't think so, not in a positive way at least. I spent 3 years at the FellowLaborers location and not even once did he ever bother to visit. There was an airstrip right down the road. He had a private plane. It was probably a 20 or 30 minute flight at the most. Do the math. "We all know how it ended for VPW." Believe it or not, there are still people who don't know the details of how he died. (You can find his death certificate here on GSC.) He died of cancer, as did his brother "Uncle Harry" and his son, Don. This is a massively huge deal to have to reconcile with Way Theology, which teaches that cancer is caused by devil possession. (Advanced Class) It's quite a dilemma. Either he was wrong about this and could have been wrong about a multitude of other things- or- we were following a man who was devil possessed. Yep. There's some irony about it, for sure.

Looking back at my early days of posting here, people probably thought that I was rude, too. Hell, I came here looking for a replacement PFAL book so I could lend it to people I was witnessing to. Imagine what people must have thought of that request!

I'm not at all offended. (I'm male, by the way.) Waysider is not capitalized because I am not THE Waysider, I'm just ANOTHER waysider. Not a specific person, rather a type of person. There's a story behind it. Maybe I'll tell you some time when you're having trouble sleeping. It's a snoozer.

Yeah, like boot camp you can never graduate from. Well, you do graduate eventually but then you get assigned soooo not really.Plus, in the military ( or so I'm told) they break you down so they can build you back up the way they want you. In TWI, they just break you down and toss you aside, sometimes in the middle of the night, a thousand miles from home. What was his dream? I can tell you it surely wasn't "Word Over The World". More like "money for nothin' and chicks for free". HERE is some insight into his dream. The book is an easy read and gives the reader an inside glance of what happens when a clique becomes a cult. The names in the book have been changed for legal reasons but the essence remains the same.

I don't recall if it was in a class or seminar or publication or whatever but, when I was in The Way, these similarities were explained away as being counterfeits, meant to dilute the importance of the "real" events. A trick of the devil, as it were. Yep. Our version of the truth is the only genuine version. All the others are fakes, designed to lead you away from accepting the genuine...

I don't recall if it was in a class or seminar or publication or whatever but, when I was in The Way, these similarities were explained away as being counterfeits, meant to dilute the importance of the "real" events. A trick of the devil, as it were. Yep. Our version of the truth is the only genuine version. All the others are fakes, designed to lead you away from accepting the genuine...

If it's researchers you seek, you might want to shoot a PM in the direction of Penworks. (I hope she doesn't mind my suggesting this.) a starting point

"I would ask you this question: when does a click become a cult?" This is an excellent question. I suppose the easiest answer would be that a clique becomes a cult when it starts to meet the defining criteria. (ie: charismatic leader, insider jargon, special/privileged knowledge, etc.) In my opinion, it starts to become a cult when it governs your life on a moment by moment basis. I think this is something that is sometimes hard to understand if your involvement with The Way never went beyond the local level. At the local level, you can go to twig fellowship, put on the believer face, do the mannies, drink a little stretched coffee (from a reused styro cup) and go back home in a couple hours to be the real you once again. In contrast, when you're in one of the "training programs" (I was in FellowLaborers of Ohio.), there is no going home. You ARE home, on stage, 24/7. Every moment of every day is consumed with a struggle to (as the actors say) stay in character. You're not really "you". One day, you look in the mirror and wonder who you're really looking at and how you got there. I think, at that point, you start to wonder if you're living some kind of surrealistic existence. You realize your clique is now a cult. It's not one of the happier realizations a person experiences in life.

Meh. No biggie. Anyhow, everyone knows .

"I do want to stay on this site but if it is determined that I must be excommunicated - I will accept that." Nah. Nobody's gonna kick you out. Unless , of course, you flagrantly violate the posting rules. Even then, I think you'll find this place to be one of the most tolerant forums you'll ever encounter. You just need to understand that the ride can get a bit bumpy in here from time to time. All opinions are welcomed, though not necessarily shared by the consensus. Post away. Have some fun. Like the kids at the hockey barn say, "We're all skatin' on the same ice.".

Pardon me, just passing through..... My link

It's not a judgement, Mark, it's an observation. A trained linguist can discern whether something is or is not a structured language without knowing what language it is or the content thereof. As far as I know, there has never been a documented case of a trained linguist identifying speaking in tongues (modern variety) as a genuine language. If you know of one, I will gladly retract my skepticism. edit: This does relate to Biblical references because on The Day of Pentecost, there were people who did understand the language being spoken, even without formal linguistic training.

Charles Parham originated the doctrine of initial evidence—that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is evidenced by speaking in tongues.[2] It was this doctrine that made Pentecostalism distinct from other holiness Christian groups that spoke in tongues or believed in an experience subsequent to salvation and sanctification. In a move criticized by Parham,[21] his Apostolic Faith Movement merged with other Pentecostal groups in 1914 to form the General Council of the Assemblies of God in the United States of America.[32] Today, the worldwide Assemblies of God is the largest Pentecostal denomination. The Charles F. Parham Center for Pentecostal-Charismatic Studies is an "independent research facility" on the campus of South Texas Bible Institute in Houston, Texas. It is one of several organizations to consider Parham a founding leader of the Pentecostal movement.[33] SOURCE If only VPW hadn't hauled all his books to the dump he might have known about this guy and the furor he created at the turn of the century. He could have saved a lot of time searching.

Genuine languages all have a definable structure, a syntax. That's what sets them apart from mumbo-jumbo. The speaking in tongues we experienced in The Way did not have such a structure. What does that tell you?

You move your tongue.You move your lips.That's it! That's it! you're doing it! You're chewing gum!

Try this one on for size, it's only 106 pages long...perfect for a cold, rainy, Saturday morning.

"Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism." MRAP This (sacred science) is what you are seeking. It doesn't exist. If you stick around here long enough (and I hope you do.), what you will begin to realize is that PFAL and Way Theology in general have nothing special to offer that can't be found in other places. To begin with, PFAL was not a special body of knowledge, given to VPW so that he could "teach it like it hadn't been taught since the first century". It was really a hodge podge of plagiarized materials from people like Leonard, Bullinger, and on and on. Almost nothing in the class was original. Whole paragraphs, whole chapters, WHOLE BOOKS! were lifted from other sources that we, as young people were unfamiliar with. There are lots of threads here that can illustrate this for you. Just ask if there is something specific you want to know. So, if it's Biblical knowledge you seek, there is a whole world of knowledge at your fingertips. The Way does not have any "exclusive" insight on the Bible. Compare TWI sources with outside sources and discover this for yourself. Here's a thread you may enjoy. Fasten your seat belt. And another

The doctrinal forum is where you'll usually find people who are interested in that sort of thing.

Most cults I've encountered usually promote an unhealthy dose of cognitive dissonance.

Playing Devil's Advocate: If religion is the basis for our moral code, why do we continue to see so many examples of immoral behavior from people like Victor Barnyard who have had more religious exposure than any 10 ordinary shmoes?

It's on the house. Welcome aboard......

There have been many studies done on this subject. (Harvard, Yale, etc.) The essence of what has been found is that babies are born with a rudimentary, innate sense of "morality". That sense of morality is then developed and fine tuned by parental and societal influences. What evolution has taught us as a species is that it is to our advantage to try to get along with each other and do the right thing rather than simply focusing on our own individual needs. It ensures a better success rate for the species overall. So, in a sense, it's somewhat a matter of preservation, not only of the individual but also of the entire human race. edit: There are examples of "morality" to be found in non-human species, as well, though it would be difficult to judge them by human standards alone. Clearly, Capuchin monkeys do not subscribe to any sort of religion but they do exhibit a form of morality.