waysider

".......the man of God of the world for this our day and time!" Is your tongue alright? You must have been biting it pretty hard as you typed that. :P

Matthew 9:23-25 King James Version (KJV) 23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise, 24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. 25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.

Can you believe for God to fill a pothole? THIS guy thinks you can. Eh, seems like small peanuts compared to casting a mountain into the sea.

"Now, no one responded to my question about negative believing (consistent negative attitude) and fear." Re: The difference between positive and negative believing. With positive believing, you have to follow rules, lots of rules. You have to focus, concentrate, give it enough time and so on and so forth. VPW said that you have to satisfy all the five rules or your efforts would be in vain. And, even then, if someone is believing in opposition they can cancel you out. It's hard stuff. Takes a lot of diligence. Negative believing, on the other hand, is a piece of cake. All you have to do is confess it to possess it. Want to come down with the flu? Just tell someone your throat feels scratchy and it's all yours. Simple. Afraid you're going to crack up (in your car)? No problem. Just think about it. You'll be dead by this time next year. God would have to change the laws of the entire universe to stop it from happening. Conclusion: Negative believing is as easy as shooting fish in a barrel. Positive believing is lots and lots of work. It requires precision and diligence. My recommendation is to fear that something cool will happen to you. Like winning the lottery. That way, you can skip all that tedium of trying to make positive believing work for you. Yep, old Eli Stanley Jones ("The Billy Graham of India") must have known what he was talking about when he famously stated that "Fear is the sand in the machinery of life".

All you really need is a little Wierwille had seed faith.

What about the "works for saint and sinner alike" part? Any thoughts?

" There should be some way to measure, document, predict within defined uncertainty, and demonstrate its usefulness." ....and that's why it's not a "law" at all. If it was a law, it would work every time the conditions are met.

But they weren't just red, they were FIRE ENGINE RED! Every woman's decorating dream come true.

Shouldn't it have been a believing well? (We weren't supposed to wish for things in The Way.)

We all "believed" he had a doctorate. How did that work out?

Well, I never actually said "They lie". Hahahahahahahahaha! Ain't semantics wonderful!

That's the most bizarre (and funny) thing I've heard in a long time. Here's how it worked when i was "in". You gave a REQUIRED "donation" to take the PFAL class. That was just the beginning. There were more classes set up the same way. Lots of them. They made money on those classes but it was a short term deal. You had to "abundantly share" (over and above the typical 10% tithe that most churches hope for) to stay in good standing. Remaining in good standing was ABSOLUTELY required to be accepted into any advanced classes or training programs. In addition, it was taught that if you didn't give at least a 10% tithe, you would be out of fellowship with God. Martindale even once said that, for anything less than 20%, God wouldn't bother to even "spit in your direction" (sic). I suppose you could say they never literally "asked". It was an UNDERSTOOD requirement. My personal feeling is that the PFAL class was, among other things, simply a way to get people to commit themselves to giving a large percentage of their income to the organization, pay after pay, month after month, and year after year. But, hey, nobody is using the word "ask" so that changes everything. Gimme a break! Amirite?

I think what you're referencing is what most people call Christian Faith. It's not what VPW was talking about in PFAL. What he was talking about was some magical power that can be conjured up by "saint and sinner alike" through focus and concentration..

Say what you will, the concept is not Biblical in origin, save for a few cherry picked verses here and there. People want to believe they can cause change through their thoughts. That's the basis of "the law of believing". If it were true, the world would be in a constant state of chaos, with conflicting thoughts cancelling each other out and confounding reality. (eg: I want it to rain, you don't. Who wins?) .....ad infinitum.

"Sorry folks, once again, off topic." It's not really off-topic. It demonstrates that there was a backstory, an underbelly to the organization. What you witnessed was a fairly common representation of accounts we have heard from many other participants. Personally, when I saw this sort of thing going on, I thought it must be an isolated incident(s). In reality, it was going on throughout the organization. The ultimate goal of our mission was to get people to take the PFAL class, not "bring them back to God". It even says that much in the Witnessing and Undershepharding syllabus. (page 16, if I remember correctly.) We weren't missionaries, engaging in some noble, selfless cause. We were an unpaid sales force, charged with selling a product. It's really just that simple. Sure, it's embarrassing to admit we were played but it's also folly to construct a mental fantasy to justify what we did.

"Do I sound - disgruntled?" Nah, you just sound like someone who got a flash of reality.

".....no wonder we should not have taken out loans to buy our own properties, then we might not tithe as much." BINGO! Another piece of the puzzle falls in place.

Playing the Devil's Advocate: It's also stated in PFAL that "it works for saint and sinner alike". Wierwille also said he saw unbelievers "manifesting the abundant life more than the believers". Clearly, part of the message VPW was peddling wasn't about God, it was about finding a way to make this thing he called "believing" a functional part of daily life. That's the same approach that has been taken by countless volumes of self-help books, not all of which involve Christianity or religion in general.

OK, serious question. How does the Bible thing work in court? (".....so help me God.") edit. Never mind. My friend, Mr. Google, says they don't do the Bible thing anymore.

I have no idea what it really means but I think my post #31 pretty much describes how it was handled in the Advanced Class. Wierwille said it's talking about the "manifestation of believing", a variety of believing that requires specific revelation to work.That sounds like a pretty handy cop out to me. Eh, what do I know?

For what it's worth, this verse was covered in the Advanced Class. The explanation (rationalization) that was given was that this exemplifies the manifestation of believing, not renewed mind believing. In other words, very specific revelation would have to precede and energize such an event. So, unless you have specific revelation to cast a mountain into the sea, any effort to do so would be futile. Now, isn't that special? edit: the "whatsoever" was explained using the *with distinction/without distinction* thing from PFAL.

In the BBC television series Dr. Who, the main character is known to default to use of a devise called a Sonic Screwdriver. It can be called upon to do all sorts of amazing feats. Need to pick a lock?--- Sonic Screwdriver. Need to disarm a robotic devise?--- Sonic screwdriver. Need to conduct a medical scan?--- Sonic Screwdriver. Oh, and you can use it to loosen and tighten screws, too. Who knew? The *law of believing* was The Way's version of the Sonic Screwdriver. It's not surprising that, in the original PFAL materials, it was first called "the magic of believing". The name was later changed to "the law of believing", I would suppose, to avoid the spiritual stigma associated with magic.

Have you ever seen, heard of, read about anyone actually casting a mountain into the sea? I should think that should be your first clue that the verse is not meant to be interpreted literally.

OK, in the least common denominator, it's a form of self delusion, convincing yourself that your thoughts are going to cause changes to occur in the physical world. Some of those changes involve your personal being (as in believing for healing) and some involve enacting changes to the world around and outside you. (such as believing for red drapes) Believing is a process wherein you convince yourself that your thoughts are causing reality to change for better or worse.