waysider

Ya know, there's just a cruel (but laughable) irony to the whole absence of VP and the PLAF class. When we were "in", it was all that mattered to get that thing in front of people so's they could have that abundant life we were living..cough..Hell, people even died trying to make it happen. It was the most important thing in the world and now it's been stuck in the back of a closet and covered with moth balls. And, that's probably a good thing.

"Through coincidence I found out where a friend works the resident mental patient employee is signed up and has other mental patient grads love bombing them." Can you explain this? I didn't quite understand. (Maybe I need another quart of coffee to get me started.)

There are so many other groups promoting their ties to VPW and his so-called works, they really don't need to invite scrutiny. Here's an example from S.O.W.E.R.s website: Our foundations are rooted in the principles taught in the Power for Abundant Living series and the Way Corps principles as enumerated by Dr. Wierwille and George Jess. (You would think his own son and grandson would know he wasn't really a Dr., but I digress.) All they really need to do is go through the motions, pretend to be something they are not, and avoid unwanted controversy. The money is already "in the bank".

There's been a lot of examination, inspection given here at GSC over the past few years to the practice of tithing. Conclusion? It's a modern day "shtick", a sort of membership dues required by various organizations. Sure, it's recorded in the Old Testament that such a thing took place. There is no indication it's a Biblical requirement, continued into modern times. It's really more of a business requirement, a tax, if you prefer. Now, to be clear, tithing and freely giving are not synonymous. Tithing is giving 10%. That's what the word "tithe" means. In The Way, it was used as a method of extortion. "God can't bless you if you don't give what you already owe." One of their henchmen even went as far as to say that "God would't even spit in your direction for less than 15%". (sic) That doesn't sound too much like something that's freely given. It sounds like coercion. Hey! Wait a minute! It IS coercion!. Well, I'll be darned. (I'm not too keen on being spit on anyhow.) When I left The Way, it was quite a big deal for me. Where will I give? Surely I have to find a place to "abundantly share". If I don't, bad things could happen to me. I learned that in PFAL. Yep, two believers even got struck deader than a doorknob back in the records of ACTS because they didn't follow the rules.....What a load of nonsense. Give a nickel or give a million bucks. Or, don't give anything at all. It's up to you. Just bear in mind that you're not doing it to get blessed or whatever, you're doing it because you want to fund someone's business venture. That's what most of these spin-off ministries that require a tithe ABS are...business ventures. Here's principle #4 from the SOWERS website: 4. Practice believing to bring material abundance to you and the Ministry. (Some of you may recognize that as a Way Corps principle. It was a FellowLaborers principle, too.) We now know that the "law of believing" is just a load of hogwash, so factor that "practice believing" part out. With that in mind, allow me to rephrase the principle in a way the will reflect it's literal meaning according to usage. Heh. 4.) GIVE to bring material abundance to the ministry. And there you have it. It's as simple as that. Churches (not just The Way or its various spin-offs) have to make you think God requires it. That's how they fund their organizations. (Well, that and Saturday night bingo.) That's why The Way was dead set against bakes sales, car washes and so on. It diluted the concept, weakened the mystique of their method. Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

If your intuition or common sense told you it was foolish to allow certain people into your home, you were led to believe you were the one at fault for thinking negatively, entertaining devilish thoughts.That's contrary to the way it's supposed to work.

I can't quite put the joke together but I know the punchline should make reference to a batboy.

For those born into The Way, we might pose the question as "How was your identity SHAPED by The Way?"

Isolation was always a BIG part of how The Way instilled a dependence in its followers. Isolation can be mental, physical or both. For all practical purposes, you weren't really supposed to associate with outsiders unless it was for the purpose of bringing them into the fold. The "unequally yoked" scripture was invoked as a directive.

I knew as it was happening that my identity was changing. But, one of the dangers of the process is that you are coached to IGNORE the changes or, at least, minimize their importance. Remember the PFAL session where we're taught to eschew careful consideration? I think that was session #7. The one where VPW talked about the consequences experienced by Eve when she gave consideration to the serpents queries. "Having done all, STAND! Don't budge." I'm paraphrasing somewhat. In fact we were even encouraged, in classes like Renewed Mind and Dealing With The Adversary, to abandon our true selves in favor of a prescribed model. But, one day, I looked in the mirror and something profound happened. I began to question how I was looking at a completely different person than I had looked at only a few short years previously. Some people never bother to look too closely into that mirror. I can't tell you why. Maybe they're happy with the change they see. Maybe they don't see a change. Or, maybe it scares them to think they've lost themselves to a fantasy. I don't know. It all started for me in the summer of 1972. Finally, a mere 43 years later, I feel like I'm back to being my old self. It feels good.

Meh. They'd probably serve you stretched coffee in a reused styrofoam cup. I'll pass.

They make good ice scrapers.

I think he was responding to the post that asked (in jest) whether he was a poser or a loon.

VP simply parroted an idea that was launched by John Darby, in the 1830's.. Darby may not have been the first to present the concept but he is generally attributed as being the leading proponent. It encompasses the idea of various portions of the Bible being written to one group with the exclusion of another. It is not a Biblical concept, nor is there any scriptural documentation substantiating it. You said: "There are scriptures that blatantly contradict each other if they're addressed to the same people under the same rules." That's precisely what dispensationalism attempts to resolve. There are portions of scripture that plainly contradict each other. The only way to make them "fit" is to pretend that different administrations are subject to different rules. The problem with this is that it has no scriptural basis. You are perfectly free to think VP was "right about that one". However, you have not successfully demonstrated a basis for that opinion. edit: " ....that doesn't mean VP wasn't born again." I never raised that issue. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less if he was or wasn't. "Doesn't mean pfal wasn't teaching the word of God" PFAL was a conglomeration of the (uncredited) works of others , such as B.G. Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger and many others. There is no guarantee their works were correct or incorrect interpretations of the scriptures. edit#2: "In the grace administration...." The Bible talks about God's grace. It never talks about a "grace administration". That's a product of dispensationalism.

I'm so sorry, Dana. Such things should never have happened in an organization that was supposedly centered on God. Well, they never should have happened in ANY organization, for that matter. My hope for you is that reading and participating in GSC discussions will in some way help to fill in the missing pieces of the puzzle and bring you some comfort in knowing you aren't alone in this.

I never said anything even remotely similar to that. My comment was in reference to dispensationalism, a concept that Wierwille called administrations. It's a (non-Biblical) methodology that compartmentalizes sections of the Bible in order to absolve oneself from the mandates of other sections. I suggest you go back and read what I said more carefully.

This is only applicable if you accept dispensationalism, as set forth by Darby. Wierwille called them "administrations". Same thing, different name.

We weren't magicians. Magicians can at least create the illusion that what they're doing is affecting reality.

And the gene pool is preserved HERE.

"I will never forget how my heart sank when wierwille stood at the microphone, at roa, and requested that advanced class grads come forward to minister healing." I was there. I didn't feel the least bit "moved" to participate....so I didn't. The people I was with looked at me with a look of confusion for my non-participation. I remember thinking about the line "God told me to tell you". It just didn't feel right. When it was over, I felt very guilty. Perhaps I had missed something? What if someone died because of my stubbornness. I carried that guilt for a very long time. The reason I'm divulging this is because I got to see the event from a spectator's vantage point instead of a participant's. Wierwille was on stage, going on and on in a manner not unlike session 12. All around me, there were "ministering sessions" going on, much like you would see at a typical twig or branch meeting. There was nothing extraordinary happening. No one was leaping out of a wheelchair or proclaiming instantaneous relief from blindness. It was just the same old stuff you would expect to hear and see at the local level but on a larger scale. Instead of being wowed by something extreme I was overcome by the mundane nature of it.

"The Pharisees thought that way about Jesus. They thought he was a joke." You're comparing VPW to Jesus?? "VP had an effective, consistent writing style." For a high school freshman, perhaps. For someone who suppoasedly had a graduate degree?...not so much. "He seemed to have good command of the English language." Looking back at the way he handled throughly vs. thoroughly, with distinction/without distinction, etc. you may want to rethink that assessment. "A thirty four hour class on the bible and he got how many people to sit through it??? Must've done something right." The graduation rate, continuation rate was dismal. I suggest there were those who sat through to the end for no other reason than they had paid for it and there were no refunds. It's called the Concorde Fallacy. It doesn't prove there was anything "right" about it. Think of it this way: You buy a pastrami sandwich. After the first bite you realize it's the worst pastrami you've ever had. But, you finish it anyway. Why? It's paid for. That's not rational..... Toss it in the trash.

".....did vpw's advocating abortion, when in opposition to many other religeous/moral values of so many orthodox Christian folks allow them the freedom to continue on the field, stay in twi and have more $ to give to twi." The answer to that is yes. There were people who were explicitly told to follow that course of action. (The term "parasite" was tossed around to describe the unborn.) Some of those people post or have, in the past, posted here.

"When twi stayed the course, God opened big doors for them." Any examples?

I'm not trained health care professional so this is just an opinion. Wierwille exhibited many characteristics that would typically be associated with psychopathy. He really didn't care about the consequences others might suffer because of his actions. He didn't care about the lives and futures of the people he was affecting. He simply lacked the ability to feel empathy. In her book (Losing The Way), Kristen recalls an incident in which she asked VP what he would do if he were caught in his wrongdoing. He casually shrugged it off and said he would lie. That incident reveals a lot about the true nature of the man. We were manipulated by a man who had mastered his deceitful craft of satisfying his own wants and greeds. Being youthful and full of idealism, we were no match for his schemes. I realize there are people reading this who will disagree with me. That's fine. All I ask is that you do a bit of personal research on psychopathy and sociopathy. Compare your findings to the accounts that have echoed through the halls of GSC for almost 2 decades. Sure, we made the decision to follow his musings but our decisions were often times founded on incorrect and/or deceitful information. That much of the blame falls clearly on the shoulders of Victor Paul Wierwille. P.S. (You know he wasn't really a "Dr.", don't you?) :P

OHIO 12 points in 2 years = 6 months suspension. HERE is an explanation of the system and HERE is a listing of point worthy offences.

You get to do one or the other but not both. Choose wisely, little grasshopper.