QuietThinker

Hi Alleycat :-) I think it's good that you have found a way that giving has blessed you (regardless of location) and it sounds like you don't feel compelled. That is a horse of a different colour, I think. cheers, QT P.S. I like your new avatar...looks like a cat I used to have, and makes me grin.

I will be happy to qualify my time, so to speak. my experiences began in 1992 and apparently haven't ended, considering the LC just called again to ask if I'd had a change of heart. The time I reference in my above post took place between 1993 and 2002 fwiw, qt

..Copied from Lorna's Post "This is all hearsay bs. I also baby sat, right up until the time I left. I was always asked and never made to feel guilty if I said no. I used to do things for the branch coordinators and they were always thankful and never expected me to do them. I would fold laundry etc. It was my choice. So I really don't believe some of the bs here being "unwritten" policy. Alot of these things that were said to believers were not mandates by TWI but individuals who went overboard. Oh well, we are not all perfect people. Perhaps they were doing their best at the time. I would attribute them to bad habits rather than "unwritten mandates" and a waste of time to even talk about. The past is past put it behind you, I'm sure there are more serious things to talk about here. And you don't throw people out for having a mortgage, we had and still have a mortgage and no one ever implied that to us." Hi Lorna, Certainly I see in your post that your experience was far different than mine, and different to many others who post here in general and specifically on this thread. I'm actually envious in a way that your experience with the interpersonal relationships seems to have been on a positive, mutually beneficial plane. As to whether or not you be lieve that "A lot of these things that were said to believers were not mandates by TWI, but individuals who went overboard. Oh well, we are not all perfect people. Perhaps they were doing their best at the time." I can't agree with you there. I posted, initially, with a blanket of sarcasm because it still annoys me. But, as to *just* the babysitting: I was *compelled* because I was put in a position where it would have been extremely hard to say no, and the one time I did, I received a reproof session far in excess to what might have been required. Since no reproof should have been required at all. But, during my time in TWI as a married person, and the few months I was separated before leaving finally--the assumption of babysitting was a "policy" acted upon by two separate sets of LCs, three different sets of BC's, and I experienced it in two states. In one case, I ended up being the primary childcare giver (when the corps couple had to return to secular work), and when I mentioned compensation I was told that was a "devilish, hard-hearted thing to say." Because giving in service was my great privilege. So...that's five couples, not all from the same corps, trained by twi, three of the men ordained ministers, and yet, the "policy" was shockingly consistant. So, let's just say then, that it wasn't a policy, but it certainly was something that was both understood and accepted. And, the reasons given for doing it, and the consequences for NOT doing it were also shockingly consistant. I remember when the mortgage issue came to a head here. I was, because of my role as insta-babysitter, witness to one of the "sell your house, get out of debt, or get out of here" sessions. It was brutal for the couple who endured it, I'm sure...and all the threats of bodily destruction and familial devastation were trotted out. It scared me. The husband finally had enough. He took his wife's hand, they left the house, and were announced as M&A at the next session of HF. Finally, as far as "a waste of time to talk about." Again, I respect your opinion, but I would suggest that different people seek out healing and understanding in their own way. I haven't seen this thread get blown up to the level of "Hearsay BS" that you've called it. I don't know if we all agree that there were abuses, and yes I use the word intentionally, perpetrated by twi, but I *do* believe that. Even in these "small, insignificant" ways, the continued pattern of control and dominance bled down from the top, and it takes people time to process that and work it through. Therefore, I'm not sure talking about it is a waste of time. I thought a great deal about your use of the term b*ll..... It's a strong opinion and an inflammatory term, guaranteed to elicit a strong response. During my time in twi, I saw plenty of "small things" blown off, and derisively dismissed as "b*ll....*, and have since come to question any argument which makes light of another person's personal experience. We're talking here, in context, about our experiences in twi and I'm trying to limit my response to that. When you say "the past is the past, put it behind you." Instead of using this thread to whip up old resentments and add fuel to a fire, I believe many posters are trying to do just that, and using the old, well-worn mechanism of shared experience to do it. Sometimes you just have to voice things before you can put them away, or process them. I was deeply affected by how I was treated by leadership--these were the people we were told stood for twi, represented them, and since the ones who took advantage of me most are still involved at the leadership level, I am afraid I must disagree with you in full, and say that twi does back these unwritten guidelines, and there is a tacit agreement to the items which go on. I hope I haven't offended you. Apologising for my own thoughts and reactions--even when something's not my fault--is a trait I picked up in twi, and haven't overcome yet. But...I'm trying. Regards, QT

yeah...that's the one ;-) As my fella would say though..."hers dunt go 'ard on t'ears" qt

hmmm....not a girly, Tom...let me slip you another couple of lyrics...then it will be as easy as walking on a broken heeled pump, carrying a suitcase... You and I could never live alone But dont you feel like breaking out Just one day on your own ...and thanks, Paw. I think so, too :-) Cheers, qt

Cheers, WE... qt

ILB, Your ramblings make me think and have helped me sort some things in my own head...so...please keep rambling. Part of what I think helped to ensnare me was the claim of "biblical teaching and research fellowship." I was told, on the one hand, that I was to go to the Word to seek out and prove those "truths" that were being taught for myself. BUT The only language that was accepted, and seen as "truth" was that which came down through the tree, so to speak. So...even though I was pretty skilled in research techniques, and when I left college the first time, I had 4 years each in Latin and modern Greek, and felt pretty confident with some of those skills. When I got here, the truth is, the actual use of research materials (at least where I was) wasn't really taught. Teachings were parroted, and the more I learn, the more I see that language was twisted, or even made up, to make certain doctrine fit. This was exactly what was NOT supposed to happen. So...did we really research? Were we encouraged to look and study deeply--at least people like me...the average believer type. Nope. I don't do ANYTHING in my life that I haven't really researched...looking up opposing opinions on everything from a car I might buy, to a novel I'm dissecting for a class. Under the guise of providing sound research, we were inundated with a great deal of material...information that many of us never had the skills to process in the first place, and told to believe that as truth. Is that different from any other organization with an agenda? I don't really think so. As was mentioned earlier, I think we were pummeled with "the Word" in such a way and in such amounts as to be designed to overwhelm the brain until you just gave in and believed...because it sounded plausible. It sounded thought out. And those questions we all had...we suppressed them. But, I can say that I no longer buy things that just don't pass the "smell test." I don't know if this fits with what you were thinking, but I've been thinking about it since I read your post. cheers, qt

Mmmm....ok. I was having a small pity party today, only invited myself, you see...and I called up this on the Nano... "They say two hearts should beat as one for us We'll fight it out to see it through" It's an easy one, but I enjoyed it today! qt

This might be an interesting time to look into the history of parens patriae as it applies historically. The study of government's interest in the affairs of children/parents/and families has a somewhat sensational and oft debated history. qt

haha, how funny, that post was chopped off on my screen and looked blank...lovely, wasway!! *still laughing* qt

May I venture a guess? Hi De Ho...Blood, Sweat and Tears I'm not sure, but I thought I recognized that on my fella's IPOD today. qt

late model? I'll never believe it...classic lines, zero to comical in 0.6 seconds, refined chassis, engine tuned to perfection.... you're timeless, of course, like a fine roadster... Hey! I think I just made a pass at you, too. Bonus! hehehe, kidding, of course, but your post did make me laugh. QT

A la prochaine, That interior death you speak of...the sonambulistic stupor of just walking through life because you're not really alive, and became somehow content in the living death... that really struck home for me today. And makes me realise from reading all the posts here, and the words from you and Belle on this thread...I'm not as far back into life as I intend to be. I felt for a long time like a fish on a line, too tired to fight the hook anymore. I think the similar feeling of being whipped against the bars of a cage also applies. My choices may be imperfect now, but at least they are mine and I take responsibility for making them. regards, qt P.S. and it feels pretty good :)

I do, too, FAL...but don't dispair, it's only 'cos the Baby-Boomin' Establishment hijacks the airwaves... at least...that's what I keep telling myself. hehe, qt

Babysitting for leadership...is a free service. Oh, yeah. I remember that one. And when their kids are old enough to babysit...you'll pay them at a higher than going rate.

Happy HAPPY Birthday! qt

I'm so glad to have met, you BB! Many *happy* returns of your special day! QT

I can't seem to figure out the quote thing...but I'm going to quote OldiesMan first, then the article: First, Oldiesman: "Another thought: up to this point we seem to be focusing only on the negative, the fear and intimidation; but what about folks who actually believed in tithing, who gave out of love, and the heart of giving, not grudgingly or of necessity? Those things were taught in twi also. So it's possible folks were motivated by those things as well, and still are. I just can't automatically assume that all these folks are tithing because they are afraid God won't spit in their direction, even though Craig in one of his rants said so." When my husband and I were actively involved, we tithed on the gross. Then when the point came down that you need only tithe on your net income, because you never actually had control over things like taxes, etc. We continued to tithe on the gross, because we felt that was a way we could kick over the tithe and into abundant sharing. During that time, I was pregnant with my daughter, then two years later, became pregnant with my son. This part of the article is something I held onto. From the Way Magazine Article, The Tithe Doth Still Provide (LCM, 1982) "As Dr. Wierwille wrote in the booklet Christians Should Be Prosperous, "Tithing...without the pure impetus of love as the motivating principle, is fickle and shallow." Above all, your heart and attitude must be right before God. Deuteronomy 7:13 and 14 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb (your babies will be healthy!), and the fruit of thy land (so will your business!), thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee. Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle. No unbelievers should be more blessed that you! You will have what you need to function beautifully. And look at the promise that a woman will produce children who are healthy and vibrant, to be the future believers! Wow! All that tithing covers is huge!" As some of you know, my son has been diagnosed with severe Autism. I knew something was very much off track when he was a year old. My husband, when we got the initial diagnosis of PDD (Pervasive Development Disorder, which is sort of a blanket, initial diagnosis), turned to me at the Developmental Pediatrician's office and hissed, literally hissed at me, "You're off the word, because I tithe and that guarantees this couldn't happen!" I carried that guilt for years, and sometimes still think about it...even as educated as I am about the disorder, even with everything we do for him, I still have the niggling questions. Because, you know what, I was one of those happy, cheerful givers. My parents raised us to give charitably, to help out where we could, and when I was involved in TWI, I thought that writing the check for ABS was cool. I expected to receive blessings, I looked for them. It never occurred to me that my kids could fall into the statistical bell curve of disabilities--I was not, as I was later told--harbouring some fear that was manifested in the birth of my son. And despite being told that "ministering to him would provide all the healing he needed," I have continued to fight for his education with the school system (though I live in a great area, I admit that), and his father so that he can get the medical attention that is really making an impact. When we separated, TWI leadership came to me...at my home...and the first item on their agenda to discuss was my ABS. They were concerned that I would no longer believe that 9/10ths would cover more than 10/10ths. In this same conversation, it was mentioned...TO ME...I didn't hear about it second hand, it was not written down, but TOLD to me...that if I were to stop ABS'ing then I would bear the complete responsibility when my children and I ended up on the streets. I was told that I was "In the Jaws of the Adversary" and only by continuing to faithfully tithe and ABS would my future be secured. Erm. Does that sound threatening to anyone else? Tell that to a new single mom, without a job, who hadn't finished college because of marriage, and who deals with a slightly, ok, highly vindictive ex...and it somehow isn't extortion? I'd had enough of the threats. That was the end. qt

Cheers, NowGrown... Lots and lots to read :) I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts as well. qt

at the end of the "tithe" article, there is a reference to an upcoming article in twi's mag that would reference going above the tithe. I seem to recall that such an article exists...I believe it was post 1996. I don't have my mags anymore. Surely someone must... qt

ah! ...Sudo...you made me think and remember...Laddie is a scottie? you know how *proud* they are! I'm not suprised at all! qt

When I was younger, and my dad was getting older...he moved his breeding program from german Shepards to Scottish Terriers. I was just leaving horses behind and found showing and training the dogs to be a lot of fun. Consequently, I learned to groom. I started with Scotties (Yes, Belle, stripping good...cutting, no no no :) ), and then learned through handling how to groom other breeds as well. I'm not an overall groomer at all, but, it was my experience that every dog behaved a bit differently after grooming. Even now, when I go home, Emma, my dad's dog, will waddle over to me (she's about 11 now), and roll over to have her "skirts" combed. Afterwards, she prances like she's two years old and on a catwalk (even if she is a dog). The weirdest was an OES whose personality went from laid back and cool pre-groom to Mr. Hyper right after for about a day and a half. So, before I handled him on a Saturday dog show...I'd groom him Monday afternoon, and only brush him out before the show...so he wasn't a wild man. So, yep, I think it has an effect. qt

The Moderator is completely correct, of course. I'm posting from North Carolina until Friday evening...but...I errr.... might just have that article on my hard drive. And If I were, hypothetically, to receive a PM requesting it, I might just hypothetically e-mail it. But it *is* copyright protected.... ;) So, errr, lemme know. qt - away from home, but never without the faithful laptop

Ok, here it is Tom. I've done as faithful a job as I can typing it. qt < article removed > Just a note: All the capitals are in the text, I've not made additions or added any comments of my own. qt Moderator note: The article needed to be removed since it is copyrighted by The Way International and reproducing it in full violates that copyright (even though The Way International has done more than their fair share of violations). Since the thread is/was already moving along at a good pace, not a bad idea to leave it. You are free to quote sections of the article. See: Fair Use Policy

Tom S.: I will be happy to post the article, I will get to work on it today, soon as the boy is off to school and I finish the dishes :-) qt