oldiesman

Hi djs, Thanks for your input, and I hope you stick around and share your thoughts and opinions.

Thanks Bramble. I think 1989-1993 were still twi-1 in the sense that there was little legalism to speak of, and the programs that VP initially set up were still "available". Then in 1993 things really changed for the worse. Abundant legalism, programs being dismantled, much less freedom, purges, etc. So that's where I'd start referring to twi as twi-2, around 1993. I'd refer to twi-1 as before that.

About a year and a half ago, dmiller was kind enough to send me a copy of the 37-page letter dated February 26, 1987, from John & Pat Lynn, Tom Reahard, Ralph D. and Robert Belt, to the Five Trustees, explaining why they were leaving. If anyone is interested, I will be happy to email you a PDF.

It is only fair that you try to answer my question first, then I will try to answer yours. Have a great weekend, I'm outta here. :)

Sirguessalot, I got the following brief definition of idolatry from the Catholic Encyclopedia Online: I think that sums it up pretty well. The way I understand it, it looks to me like two key ingredients are required for the practice of idolatry: (1) elevation of something/someone to the level of a God, (2) then, worshipping that something/someone in place of the true God.

I still don't get it, I don't see where he is practicing idolatry, and it is disturbing that a brother in Christ is accused of this. I wouldn't accuse you or anyone on GS of practicing idolatry, and wouldn't accuse ANYONE of it, unless I really KNOW that I KNOW that I KNOW. I have never even accused those who believe in the TRINITY of practicing idolatry, even though VP taught and believed that. I was never that sure. You say it extends beyond Mike's belief that PFAL is God Breathed. Are you around him, live with him, know all of his thoughts and actions, that you can be so sure he practices idolatry? How can you be so sure?

Actually, when I read the letter again, there is nothing in there inviting you back. And she closes by saying "I'll see you at the bema"... So she is saying goodbye, and not expecting you to come back or even respond.

If twi-2 really did change the m&a policy, I believe I know a way to find out. For anyone who was marked and avoided: simply call the way bookstore and ask to purchase something. If you are allowed to purchase, then they changed their m&a policy. Because it has been a policy from the early 90's, that those of us (not just m&a but everyone) who no longer fellowshipped with twi-2 couldn't purchase from the bookstore, period. But, a couple of years ago, they changed the policy to allow everyone to purchase except "marked and avoided" folks. So simply, if anyone who previously was marked and avoided can purchase NOW, then they changed the m&a policy. Does that make sense?

If Mike is practicing idolatry because he believes PFAL to be God-Breathed (which would probably be a form of bibliolatry), then all peoples who believe the Bible is God-Breathed, are practicing idolatry, or bibliolatry. Same goes for Jews and the Torah. Koran. Book of Mormon. Or any "holy" book one believes to be the truth. Or maybe even any "book" one believes to be the truth.

I am not responding because I do not wish to derail this any further.

Sorry for the derailment.

I still disagree with you. I still believe that the decision to stand with Craig, in the movement of the Word, was the right one for that day and time. The Word was still being preached to the extent it was being preach when VP was around, .. all the programs were still in place. All the possibilities for folks who wanted to hear the Word we had heard and approved of for so long was there ... the human "potential" was there to keep on preaching, keep on moving the Word. Here is an excerpt from Craig's letter:

Right on, Oakspear! Yea Oakspear...yea Oakspear... Here is an excerpt from Craig's Loyalty Letter I of March, 1989:

Hi Linda, thanks for your input. If you say Craig was a control freak in the 80's, I'm not going to argue with you, you were there. My viewpoint comes from being out on the field in NY where I wasn't exposed to his daily behavior, mannerisms, words, etc., ... coupled with getting information (or lack thereof) from folks who stood with the Sultan of Aloofness. So therefore, I retract my statement "He wasn't an evil control freak at that time...in fact for 3 year prior, he was anything but". As for the rest of my opinion in that paragraph/post, I think it's accurate.

Oh well, we just disagree.

Well I definitely disagree with that assessment! :) The twi tree may be on its last limb, but the Word that was once shared from our former group is still being spread. The Word still lives.

I disagree. At that point in history, Craig hadn't manifested the evil of later years. And the vagueness of the information out there was a factor too. He wasn't an evil control freak at that time...in fact for 3 year prior, he was anything but. Things were fine for awhile after the letter, but got worse from 1993 and beyond. And you know the rest of the story...

It is not unbiblical unethical or stupid for an employer to ask for loyalty from his employees. In fact it is downright proper. I can just imagine if my boss asked for my loyalty, and I respond, "no, I stand with God". Golly, no wonder why folks got sacked forthwith...

I got involved with TWI-1 to learn more about God, come to a knowledge of the truth, and do the will of God. Those were my sole attractions. I can see why it would be a big waste of time and money, if folks got involved for other reasons.

Well that was because when Craig was asking his employees and others to stand with and support him, a lot of the ones who didn't want to stand with him, said "I stand with God". So Craig said, "don't give me any of that standing with God crap." It was really a bogus excuse. You are standing with God? Fine...let God mail you your paycheck! Fact is, we were all, all of us, standing with some man, be it Craig, Chris, John, Vince or whoever. So Craig's statement made sense, to me.

Somewhat For those who have not seen The Exorcism of Emily Rose, I watched it last week and it was good. It's a very interesting story in a courtroom setting. Here is a review from americancatholic.org:

Here is a quote that suggests Moslems, like Jews, or anyone else for that matter who strives to "lead a good life", does not need to believe in Christ to be saved.

Here is a quote that would suggest that one endangers their eternal salvation, by not voting! :(

So then Ramona was just weak... She wasn't evil, as well?

Here is another quote, regarding salvation of the Jewish people. It appears the official position of the Catholic Church is that Jews do not have to believe in Christ to be saved. Here is the quote: