oldiesman

Fine, but you are comparing apples with oranges. TWI was/is a group that holds forth the accuracy of God's Word (for the most part ). That is the basic belief. If you don't like it, or couldn't agree with that, you were/are free to leave. The Greasespot Cafe forum is a place for freedom of expression. If you don't like that or don't agree with that, leave.

Mark, the twigs I attended were all those good things you mentioned, but I was spared the anal micromanagement of the 1990's and beyond. Why am I not involved today? I've said before, if someone invited me, I would check it out to see what's happening. Wouldn't contribute any money for hq, but I may enjoy the fellowship & fig newtons. Don't think there are any places to go close by me tho'. twi still has church in the home, so whether you like them or not, they haven't abandoned the concept.

It wasn't implemented as far as I saw, whether or not it was verbalized. Self propagating? hmm ... ok I will concede that one.

Hi Linda, Not sure what your point is, but twi abandoned that concept, if it ever had it, very early on. I can't remember that twig was ever "self supporting", "self governing", "self propagating". The Way Tree syllabus, where I think I saw that concept in print, wasn't applied, as far as I know.

I was taught the accuracy of God's Word by Victor Paul Wierwille. If that makes me a Wierwillite, so be it.

Whether one likes twi or not, they never blew the concept. They've been doing it successfully for over 40 years, to this day. Even as thousands of folks left, they never abandoned the concept.

Oh really? The term blind obedience was not in the March or April 1989 letters, and I believe written documentation sent to thousands, trumps verbal hearsay to one. The terminology used in the letters is "stand with and support". But, for the sake of argument, let us assume that Craig meant blind obedience... You know what that means if you were in the corps. That was taught in the corps and all staff and corps know what it means and what twi means by it. So, if one had a problem with that concept, one should have dealt with it way way before the concept may have been invoked or verbalized. That is assuming he actually meant blind obedience... like "go shoot yourself in the head if I tell you". When I think of Craig asking for blind obedience, it is in the context of moving the word... doing the work of the ministry... so I would read that into the context it was written.

Except when some/most of his sargeants, lieutenants, captains and such, are possibly/probably thinking that the leader is ineffective, off the wall, corrupt, worshipping other gods, etc. At that point, a line has to be drawn. It is incumbent upon the leader to ask/request/demand of his sargeants, lieutenants, captains and such, where they stand. If they do not "stand with me" -- please make up your mind, be honest, and get out -- go stand with someone else you don't have a problem standing with. An employee stands with and supports their employer, whether they are a minister of Christ, or not. If an employee can't or won't be loyal to and support their employer, they really should move onto something else.

Eagle, he did write 2 letters, one in March and one in April, 1989, asking way employees and corps to stand with him in the movement of the Word, and if folks couldn't do it, to be honest about it and resign. He didn't lie to you or hq about that. If he wrote a letter subsequent saying "and don't give me any of that standing with God crap" I can understand where he was coming from and can envision him saying that. And I agree with it and it makes sense to me. Some people apparently responded to his request "I stand with God". That response was insulting and nonresponsive to his request for folks to make up their mind who they stand with, either the trustees or Geer, or someone else. He wrote in his March 1989 letter that standing with God means to do his word and will, and each of us must decide with whom we want to do that. And so, the response "I stand with God" was crapola, unresponsive and insulting. When the boss of a company asks for your loyalty and wants you to stand with him as best you can on a project, and you answer "I stand with God"... what do you think the boss will say? "Don't give me any of that standing with God crap"... or "ask God to send you a paycheck" You stand with God ... Great! So do 8,000 other religions. Where do you stand with me?

I just found out the "rumor" that twi is now running PFAL classes is false. The same person who fed me the rumor corrected themselves. Oh well.

Thanks Mo.

What I believe is that God wants us to walk with Him, and encourages us to do our best via His own Love thru Christ, His Word, the gift of holy spirit, and each other. I do not believe that God brings sickness, pain and death to accomplish His goals or bring us closer to Him.

I don't know what a Wierwillite is, but since I believe most of what he taught, I guess I'll be called one. No offense taken.

"It's the stones in the brooke that make it sing" Golly, where have I heard that before?

Mark, that's not my style in most cases ... you want Wordwolf. :) The PFAL/STFI lesson is what I believe, at present; and it contradicts a key element of what this man apparently believes... i.e. God's sovereignty. Therefore, I thought that citing the teaching from STFI is best to show what I believe. They teach the topic better than me. If you feel strongly that God allows sickness and pain and it is a gift from Him, go ahead and make your arguments.

That's one reason why his viewpoint is so sick. Would you bestow upon a loved one, child, your pet ... a crippling and painful disease? IF I were God ... that believe would make me weep.

ckmkeon, With a few exceptions, I'm in agreement with you.

Does God permit evil? Here's an article from STFI which is the best article I've read on the net, on this topic. Does God Permit Evil?

Here's something nice to say about present-day TWI, if it is true: I heard a rumor that TWI is coming back to PFAL. PFAL classes are now allowed to be run. This is just a rumor; I don't know if it is true. If anyone has additional information, please post.

I vehemenently disagree that God gives us diseases and sicknesses to teach us a lesson, or to bring us closer to Him. In fact, I think that's sick. Would you give your children, loved ones, pets, etc. ... dreadful painful diseases to bring them closer to you?

In the sense of believing unto salvation, I understand what What the Hey means. In the sense of believing for red drapes, I understand what Raf means.

I think the Craig of the '70's and the Craig of the '90's were two different people, entirely. Thanks for your response Eagle.

Does "believing" work all the time? Yes, when one believes. Believe what? What God says is available, and what God has promised. Why? because God promises it and He says it is available. I think some folks get hung up on the word "law". Take the word "law" out. It is redundant.

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