oldiesman

Free will choice.

Agree...

I thought this AI page did a pretty good job of explaining it: analysis of mark 7:25-29 - Google Search

Heck no. The context of those verses are talking about false prophets and teachers who wallow in evil.

Happy Thanksgiving to All!

There's an inherent conflict in this thread, namely, "thinking critically" (natural knowledge) vs. "thinking spiritually" (faith). As a believer I must not and do not want to brush God aside for the sake of intellectualism. I'm not saying that being an intellectual is a bad thing; what I mean is I think that intellectuals have a very hard time wrapping their heads around God because they try to over-intellectualize God and you can't do that because his ways are far above that.

Lots of good stuff on this thread! Thx for sharing everyone.

I remember VPW and Craig saying it was a CIA operation, that's about it. I found this CIA clip confirming the lawsuit surrounding it: REV. JONES WAS CIA AGENT, SUIT ALLEGES

As we all know Jesus' act of giving his life is regarded by Christians as the ultimate in love and sacrifice for man's sins. Don't know why it had to be this way, but since it's the ultimate in love and sacrifice there was no other ultimate way to prove God's love to mankind. But, you appear to be canceling Jesus' sacrifice by saying it was simply copied by earlier cultures like it all is a hoax? I've heard it before; only wanted to know if you believe this too. Thx.

Yes.

The Crucifixion

I get a sense that you do believe in a God that exists, otherwise why all the disagreement? And therein lies the great sin, thinking that we are smarter than, more moral than, more just than, more reasonable than, more loving than God himself who doesn't always reveal why things happened the way they did and also allows ungodly things to happen. And yet Jesus amazingly overcame the greatest injustice of all.

Hadn't thought of it that way... will pray about it thx.

Not necessarily... it's how you ask that matters. I remember sitting down with Craig at a difficult time during my 6th corps experience. He said "ask God to help you." He didn't say study more, do more good works, recite scripture retemories, etc... but simply ask God for an answer. This action necessarily requires faith in Jesus Christ, faith in God. Not question God with my doubt and anger like I know more than him, I'm more logical; or reasonable etc. Simply ask why things happened and God will be there with an answer. Let God speak to you. And if no answer is immediately forthcoming, continue praying about it and the answer will be there. Be patient. To borrow a phrase from VPW "Daddy's cookie jar" may be empty at the moment. Modnote: Again, this thread got political, this post got back to topic.

I find it hard to believe that my fellow believers in TWI didn't have a goal to help others.... I've experienced the opposite. Have no regrets there. What is regrettable now is selling a product (PFAL) that had unquestionable perfection or so we thought.

I get what you're saying. What can I say but "we'll understand it all by and by".... we certainly don't now right? I look at the horrible torture and painful death of Jesus in the same light how can we possibly understand it all.

I do recall some, brain farts and all..

"with a position that long predates victor" Question: was there ever an exhaustive attempt on a thread at GS uncovering all or most of the origins of VPW's teachings? Thx.

Honestly don't know... but I believe faith is still a requirement to accept it as an actual miracle. Similar is the story of Bernadette Soubirous. I believe the hell she went through trying to prove to everyone what she saw, was eventually confirmed by the spring, the healings that occurred, and later her incorruptible physical body. Even with all that, faith still is a requirement. Bernadette Soubirous - Wikipedia

YW and thanks. So here's a question you may have already answered, but perhaps you may want to expound more for the readers understanding. The below link has been described as a "miracle". But what is the non-spiritual explanation? I will admit, I do believe it was a miracle and can't honestly see it any other way at this point. Thx. Miracle of the Sun - Wikipedia

Raf, I think you give because of YOU not because you no longer believe in spiritual things. (my opinion). Your heart and soul. I volunteer to do stuff too, among them, give blood and platelets, not because I believe in the spiritual realm but because I can see it does help save lives. I still do pray when I do this though.

This all is well said and well taken. The (let's say) hundreds of bible claims and stories, bring a once-believer in miracles to come to the place of not believing ANYTHING spiritual? Not to mention that personal experiences of the miraculous? It doesn't work with that VPW "mathematical exactness and scientific precision" but they do happen don't they? All of that should be thrown in the trash can like it was all a silly accident? All comments welcome, thx.

Or else it was the plan all along? If so, logically then "he who planned it all along" must be keeping track of everything. In contrast from the non-spiritual side of things, it all happened by happenstance?

Exactly.

Agreed.