oldiesman

Based upon the truth that the real you is the Christ in you, yes, I think twi taught keys on how to become Word conditioned and aware, rather than self conditioned or circumstance conditioned. Of course, how that related to an individual was according to that individuals own commitment, attitude and mindset. It was up to the individual how far one wanted to go with "walking in the spirit".

Yet another example that if one regrets their twi stint, they have nobody to blame but themselves. TWI didn't want folks if folks didn't want to be there.

That's good wisdom Mo. I believe God already sorted things out and we're all gonna be there. Praise God.

He said he believed in Jesus Christ and that God raised him from the dead; he said he loved Jesus Christ and Christ was his lord and savior. I believe Wierwille when he said that, so yeah, I think and believe he is born again, because I believe that Wierwille was honest when he said that and God's Word is truth and will come to pass.

This is true. I think it's fair that one may describe what a person is on the inside by what they do, what they teach, what they think, what they speak, etc.

Off topic. What I'm saying is, if an alcoholic father who abuses his children does Romans 10:9, he shall be saved according to the scriptures. Salvation and getting born again, isn't about the goodness or badness of ones behavior. It's about God's grace, and faith in God's promise to bring it to pass.

I went back and read Galatians and it doesn't say what you describe. It talks about "the works of the flesh" and "fruit of the spirit". But it doesn't characterize people as "of the flesh" or "of the spirit" in those verses. Since we Christians are made up of both flesh and spirit, we do (or are capable of) doing the works of both.

We know what was in Wierwilles heart by what he taught and said, both positive and negative. By the fruit, if you will. He and you and me are not saved by works, but when we look at a persons life and see what comes out of their mouth, their works, what they did; what they are devoted to,;; it demonstrates whats on the inside. He also spoke in tongues... Isn't that why you believe Wierwille was a monster because of his evil works? BTW, I believe he was wrong about SIT being the only way to "really know" a person is saved.

I really don't know either, but if Wierwille or anyone else is born again, he received God's gift of holy spirit, he already has eternal life, sealed with holy spirit. The fact that he didn't confess his sins before his death wouldn't matter. The religion of my youth taught that. That's a Roman Catholic teaching and if you are of that belief then I understand where you're coming from. But I believe differently now.

I can't prove that God exists either; but this is a debate about opinions and beliefs. On the topic of salvation, I don't speculate. What this really is, I think, is a debate and argument about what scriptures one really believes.

But not the topic of salvation and getting born again, which is what we are debating now.

The bible describes the men who wrote the bible as "holy men of God". I don't compare Wierwille to these men, but if we're talking sins, some of those men committed worse than Wierwille and they are called "holy men of God". ************** A person's salvation is not based on their behavior, or good works. It is based on GOD's GRACE which is BIGGER than MANS BEHAVIOR.

When it comes to salvation I don't speculate this point. A man that teaches for over 40 years that Jesus Christ is the lord and savior and Messiah, doesn't doubt Roman's 10:9 and other scriptures about sonship. He leads others to this rock-solid belief in God and Christ's gift of holy spirit and salvation, yet he himself doesn't believe it? That's like Orville Reddenbahker not knowing what popcorn is. God would have to withhold His gifts, grace and mercy from Wierwille and others.... something I don't believe.

All human beings are *in the flesh* and *of the flesh*. But we also have holy spirit. But if I believe Gal 5:19-21 and just that, and throw out everything else, yeah, Dr. Wierwille (and I suppose some of us as well) are going to hell and will not get to heaven and paradise. But I would have to ignore great sections of scripture, some of which the following: Romans 10:9 -- confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, believe in thy heart God raised him from the dead and "thou SHALT be saved". It says "thou shalt be saved". For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Ephesians 2:8,9: -- we are saved by God's grace, through faith in Christ. Not of works lest any man should boast. Ephesians 1 -- God has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies, chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, we are holy and without blame before him in love, predestinated us to be his children, accepted in the beloved, redemption thru his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, having obtained an inheritance, being predestinated, being sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is the token of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. I John 1:9 -- God forgives sins. ******************* I think the meaning of Gal 5:19-21 must be interpreted in a way that doesn't contradict the above. TWI taught that Gal 5:19-21 means loss of rewards. I certainly do believe that. I do not doubt God's Grace working in lives of sinners. ******************* Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus was getting ready to murder a few more Christians. If we take Gal 5: 19-21 literally, he would have no inheritance in the kingdom of God. Jesus never would have appeared. No grace and mercy. No forgiveness. The party's over.

Well now at least we have something to debate! A man teaches for over 40 years that it's Christ in you, the hope of glory, we are saved by God's grace, not works, Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the son of God, the head of the body, the Master, one baptism thru HIM, CHRIST many folks get blessed and become part of the body of Christ, if not so already The fullness of the head God dwells in Christ, which dwells in you, teaching over and over you are righteous now, we are seated in the heavenlies, we are completely completely absolutely complete in Him on and on and on, and this man who taught all this for over 40 years didn't believe it himself, and this man is not born again.... or even worse, born of the seed of the serpent? will burn like a crisp in hell. PREPOSTEROUS! please send me what your smoking I want some.

And so did Dr. Wierwille, many, many times. And your point is? Come on T-Bone, wheres the beef? If you say Wierwille wasn't born again, at least we have something to argue about. :)

I disagree. A Christian is one who is saved, born again, with Christ in Him / Her the Hope of Glory, via God's Grace and belief in Christ ( Roman's 10:9 ). Christianity is about what God has wrought thru Christ, not about man's good character.

There are double standards being applied but not by me.

I'll leave the bad fruit up to you to communicate if you wish. We certainly can't ignore it and it matters. But from a godly perspective, some good fruit would be: folks coming to a greater knowledge and understanding of the truth; greater appreciation of the bible; (in my case, simple appreciation since I didn't appreciate it before) greater love for God and Christ; folks getting born again; folks learning who they are in Christ; folks still benefitting from his teaching... ******************** You are appalled I compare David, Solomon, and Saul of Tarsus to Wierwille in the sin category? Golly, if the internet were around back then, I think these guys would be way more condemned than Wierwille ever was. These men committed much much worse evil than Wierwille; yet, God worked with them to communicate tremendous truths that are ever enduring. They are not on the same level. David, Solomon and Saul of Tarsus committed much worse evils.

T-Bone, If the answer were as simple as that, you'd have to throw away the Song of Solomon, Psalms, Proverbs, and maybe even the Epistles because of the evil works of the writers. Might as well throw out the entire bible because the whole thing was written by imperfect, flawed, sinning humans. Your formula seems to be simple: Just look at the fruit of these men, when they walked wickedly, and call them false prophets based upon the fruit produced when they walked wickedly, and forget everything else.

The fruit of Wierwilles life and teachings are both good and bad, so I believe your question is non conclusive as a blanket, one-size-fits-all rhetorical question that has a conclusive answer for everyone.

If our lives and walks (including Wierwilles) are compared with the Master, I humbly suggest we all would fail miserably.

Polar Bear, I still have some excellent tapes of Dr. Wierwille teaching about love of God from the gospels "from those good old days of TWI". I want to convert these to my Ipod.

George, Take your clothes to the dry cleaners and let them wash it for you. Saves loads of time and best money you'll ever spend.

Thinking back there was perhaps some divine intervention pursuant to my attendance at the Rock for my second WOW year. No kidding. I told a few folks of my plans, and arranged a ride with a gorgeous but ditzy young lady of the Bronx. Anyway, if you can believe this, 3 days before leaving (I think it was three, could have been a little more or less) I call her to confirm all the plans, and she says, "Oh I'm so sorry there's no room for you in the car". Words can't express how angry I was. "Now you tell me days before we're leaving and say you can't fit me in your car?" "do you realize I'm doing WOW?" Thanks so much. So I figured screw everything and that was that, I wasn't going to the Rock that year, staying home and doing my own thing. Next day, an established believer who I hadn't spoken to for years calls me and says "I understand you need a ride to the Rock".!. This was the spirit at work because the young lady who sandbagged me didn't contact this guy. Still thought I would have done ok staying home, but with that kind of magic I just couldn't.