oldiesman

6 months? wow, that's even worse than here in NY which takes about 4 months. At one time around 15 years ago, I actually owned around 50 pistols. Sold off most of them since then, but at that time I went a little crazy buying them because a good friend of mine was a gun dealer, and I was able to get the pistols a little over cost, so I began collecting. So one day as I was applying for another supplement for another pistol, it was taking forever. I went to the sheriff's office and they informed me that they are doing an investigation on me, they want to examine whether I have been selling these guns illegally. So I was asked to appear in court, and went into a room with the assistant D.A., Judge, sheriff, court stenographer, law enforcement ready to take me away, the whole shebang. Questions were asked about why I was buying all these guns and I said they were for collecting. To make a long story short, they wanted me to give an account for every pistol I owned, they wanted to see them all. They wanted to come into my home, examine my safe, make sure every gun was there. Otherwise, I was in deep doo doo. Everything checked out, but from then on, I haven't purchased another pistol.

Thank you for resurrecting an old thread of mine. Your continued posts are appreciated. :) Hard to prove that the teaching was all motivated by something that self-serving... Haven't seen any scripture on this; if you find any let me know. I defer to my own common horse sense and believe it is a crime to abort a child that can live outside the womb.

I still find great joy and peace in an occasional listening of the old tapes. There are lots of goodies there. I don't want to go to church; I have other interests. I can't get rid of these and don't want to. To me, this is "holding fast that which is good". Can something I find pleasure in be so bad?

Eat the fish, and spit out the bones?

I think my analogy was correct because Victor Paul Wierwille taught truth. Would you give the painting back? Well I am amazed. After 20 years, I would keep it.

If you had the Mona Lisa hanging in your living room for 20 years loving it there, then you find out that the person you bought it from actually stole it, what would you do?

How is your whole sense of right and wrong twisted? Perhaps we can debate this from a different perspective, although I'd still like to hear what Raffy thinks. Let's say you learned great truths about Christ from Billy Graham on television. You heard, assimilated, received, retained it with conviction, for years. You know and believe its the truth and on these truths you are unmovable. "holding fast the faithful word". Then you find out 20 years later, after Graham's death, that he was an adulterer, and he abused women, and he plagiarized, he was not the man you thought he was after all. Is your whole sense of right and wrong twisted? will you allow Graham's screw ups to effect your faith? Do you throw out that which you have assimilated, received, retained, and loved for years, because Graham wasn't really the man you knew him to be?

Raffy, the link is below, look near the bottom of the page is where our debate started, http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...aven&st=220

This is not what I said or asserted. You're great at your own strawmen, Wordwolf. What I'm saying is something like this: Therefore, the idea that someone would say "I'm confident that Wierwille taught truth, and that I truly understand it, but I'm trashing it and starting over because he was the lowest form of whale blubber in the ocean depths" is rather silly, ... Make up your mind, please? This is what Rafs statements lead me to believe, he can't make up his mind. On the one hand he writes "prove all things hold fast that which is good", on the other "throw it all out". Bottom Line: " If you hold it fast, you don't throw it out. " Folks have advocated this, because of his sins and abuses. I am certain of this. Throw it all out, it's tainted, it is poison, the fish is rotten, a little arsenic in the stew, etc... You know what I'm saying Wordwolf, you're an intelligent guy. BTW, please use larger, darker fonts. I can't see.

I'll try to explain this better. Some may think they're entitled to dispose of all they learned in twi just because of the sins of VP, and that God is ok with that. I don't think he would be. The scriptures say "prove all things, hold fast that which is good". If one tests the scriptures VP taught based upon their merit alone, and come to the conclusion they can't believe because the scruptures taught don't make sense to them or they just don't believe it, fine. No problema. By the way, VP wanted us to do precisely this, and asked us many times to do this. On the other hand, if one believes the scriptures VP taught, finds them good, and profitable; one is not entitled to throw it away as trash because of VP sins and abuses. I think that would be victim entitlement. One is a victim of Victor Paul Wierwille therefore you are entitled to keep on playing the victim card, keep on being a victim, and reject everything he taught.... I don't see that in the scripture, especially when one considers we are to "hold fast that which is good". Yes. If you throw it all away based on him being a lousy scumbag alone, do you think that is God's will? I don't. I assert that that is a form of victim entitlement. You were victimized by VP, therefore you have a right to reject the teachings based on that alone. You are letting your emotions rule, which can be dangerous... ... I'm no psychologist, but this makes sense to me.

I am forced to disagree as I don't believe in that kind of victim entitlement.

I concur.

No problem with that. But there were past suggestions to throw out everything VPW taught and start from scratch. here's a quote from Raf last year: Now this recent one: One says throw out everything VP says as untrustworthy, the other says what VP says contains some truth, so "hold it fast" (the truth part). If one separates what was taught from who taught it, one doesn't need or even shouldn't throw all of it out as untrustworthy. So, my question was, "in other words, eat the fish, and spit out the bones"?

What lesson?

In other words, eat the fish, and spit out the bones?

One other thing, I believe being "born again of incorruptible seed", as opposed to corruptible seed which would be human life. Incorruptible means incorruptible. Ya can't kill it.

I believe born again means born from above, the creation of the new man which is the same as being sealed with the holy spirit of promise. This is why, I believe there is nothing the old man can do to kill the new man. Its a new, eternal creation in Christ.

How can anyone think that Wierwille never believed the bible? It's like thinking someone can't believe the bible and also sin. Ridiculous. Happens every day, all the time. Let's talk about walking by the flesh. A biblical example comes to mind, Solomon, he had about 1,000 wives? Talk about walking in the flesh! Many of these wives were foreign, and you know the drill, God forbade Israel to marry into foreign to avoid idolatry. But Solomon didn't obey and instead built shrines to his wifes idols. And, he personally participated in the worship of these idols. Each of these idols were connected with reprehensible practices! For instance, both of the idols Chemosh and Molech required human sacrifice of children or infants in their worship. So if one can say Wierwille never really believed because of his sins, you also can say that Solomon didn't, for his sins. Go ahead and try, have fun, and pass the Kool Aid.

It's obvious God works this way even knowing about all the sinning of mankind. *********************** Do you really believe that Wierwille has done anything close to deserving eternal death? That's what we're talking about. I can't fathom someone actually believing this. Goodness, I'm glad my thoughts are different.

Well we've discussed this one before; regarding Koresh, I still believe the FBI killed those folks in the compound as payback for the BATF deaths. I don't hold Koresh responsible. See the film "Waco The Rules of Engagement" for my belief on this one. Regarding Jones, don't know, can't really say but I still believe that one doesn't lose salvation because of sins after salvation. I still believe what we were taught that once someone becomes a child of God, its permanent. I still believe that Wierwille was born again. I think it depends on the individual and how one feels about it.

Doesn't matter. God in his foreknowledge knew that Paul would murder. So, if murder is a disqualification for someone to receive revelation, it would have applied to Saul of Tarsus. I think this may be a continuation of the religious belief that "God doesn't dwell in an unclean vessel". But bear in mind, the bible says we all are unclean, we all sin. Golly if sinning kept God away from us, we'd all be in the soup.

Easter at White House

It's a rhetorical question in the bible, and unfortunately, it is possible, and does happen. And maybe even by some of us here at GS CAFE..? :o

This information should be provided for free to all ex-way. :o ;)

Actually that's not quite right. Wierwille did good things too, so he had good character. IF you say that he had an evil character because of his evil works, then I can say he had good character, because of his good works. We're even. So, the times he spoke forth the word and taught the word with believing, he was a man of good character.