oldiesman

I suppose they shouldn't be thought of as the same, as Solomon did MUCH worse evil! The principle is the same though. If the teachings of flawed humans who greatly sin are contaminated so much so that the teachings must be discarded, then Proverbs and Song of Solomon must be discarded. Wow, what spin! They (the leaders) still hold Dr. Wierwille and his teachings (PFAL) in high regard. While repudiating Wierwille's sins, they still honor Dr. Wierwille for his works sake, which the bible says to do. Don't believe me, speak to Wayne Clapp. I did, a few months ago when he ran my sister's memorial service. Make no mistake, CFF honors Wierwille.

I think it's much more selfish to antagonize folks who still love PFAL and the concepts they learned from it. You know what, if the above statement by CATCUP were really an honest and godly way to think, that folks should repudiate the teachings and communications of those who have sinned, I think the Book of Proverbs wouldn't have been included in the bible and should not be read. Let's be honest about it. Just look at the sins of Solomon as you do with Wierwille. I also think that the offshoots are great, especially CFF. They still hold VP AND PFAL IN HIGH REGARD. --- That must REALLY TICK SOME FOLKS OFF, know what I mean?

Yes, I understand. But this thread isn't about Wierwille's big hairy sins, it's about sharing things learned in PFAL. Have a nice weekend.

God loves a cheerful giver, so if you weren't cheerful about giving of your time, your money, you life, etc., it was a waste of time. And I believe VP wanted the same. I believe his heart was that he didn't want folks hanging around who didn't want to be there. I believed it was Christ in me, the hope of Glory. I believed in my sonship rights. I believed all the manifestations, that I was "the apple of His eye". I knew that God wanted me to fellowship and that was his primary will, and when I stepped out of that will, I still believed that God loved me and protected me despite my disobedience. I also believed the part in PFAL about "fear motivation" and didn't allow anyone to control me through fear, more or less.

Are your finger-pointing haranguing accusations over yet, Rascal? I get it. You are on a Godly mission from the true God to drum in posters' brains that VP & LCM & Co. were evil men. Drugging and raping and drugging and raping and drugging and raping young helpless girls. It can't be said enough. Over and over and over again, it needs to be said over and over and over again. And again. But, can't you tolerate some posts about what some posters learned in PFAL without engaging in your endless tirades? Sure you can. You are a very loving person. Yes. The end.

Who is "we" , Pond? I like Deciderator's posts. If you don't like them, unchain yourself to your computer and go do something else.

Not necessarily. Depends on the facts of a particular situation.

Another spot, I had no difficulty understanding your incident. Thanks for sharing. I think lots of us experienced some of the same things in twi. Generally, my view of my involvement was having free choices. "freely avail", as they say . I was free not to go to twig, or to leave, and did so on some occasions for several months. I made the choice to go back too. I accept full responsibility for my choices. This doesn't mean I always was in full control. For instance, I went WOW twice, and was in the corps for a few months. During those venues, I relinquished my will and wishes to someone else's, in many cases. This was done freely and for a purpose. To grow, to learn. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. I accepted it as a challenge and look back on those days as good learning.

Where? When? The incident I spoke about was the one another spot communicated.

You didn't say. Did I say your incidents did?

Actually there isn't. There are lots of opinions, but I read only one actual incident, from another spot, which I agree with but doesn't even seem to involve twi.

Deciderator, PFAL was communicated for folks like you. I believe this is EXACTLY what Dr. Wierwille wanted when he taught the class, that folks could work the word themselves and make it their own. Bravo!

It's ok to communicate an incident without mentioning names. Sorry you don't get that. Actually, your exact point isn't all that clear to me since i am unaware of the facts of the situation. It'd be foolish for me to automatically agree or disagree with your point about these events you speak, without some knowledge of the specific facts. Who is "us"? Here, do you assume that all twi participants were / are spineless?

That is your choice ... just wanted to try to understand your point better.

I got it Deciderator. Thanks for sharing.

Without mentioning names, are you able to explain the details of these events?

Welcome to this place Ephesians.

Yeah, that's what happened. As you are well aware, some verses in twi were taken literally while some others were not. I don't disagree that, since we took the verses about believing literally, some other verses that we didn't take literally should have been. Seems fair to me. But we are talking about "believing" in this thread, not love or adultery. What is your take on Matthew 21:22? Should we take Jesus' words literally in that verse?

I totally disagree. In fact, as I recall the teaching by Dr. Wierwille on Hebrews 11, he emphatically lauded and respected these believers as having believed despite going through all these intense tribulations and still not receiving the promise. As opposed to us, who have received the promise, received Christ, and all that goes with it, and still moan and complain and have sacrificed little compared to these other believers.

I don't have a problem with that. However if some Greasespot posters actually applied "love God and your neighbor" it may be a devastating turn of events for the forums. :D

IF memory serves, they had not received the promise because it was not yet available. As far as being sawn asunder by believing, I need a refresher on that as it escapes me at the moment.

I fully understand what you're saying, but it still doesn't explain how twi's belief in , say, Matt 21:22 and other like scriptures was erroneous. After all, the scriptures do communicate that Jesus did say that. Being the biblical research & teaching group that twi always was, is it any surprise that they would literally believe the scriptures? So therefore as I see it, if you conclude that twi was wrong you also must conclude that Jesus was wrong too. Maybe you do, and that'd be logical I suppose.

But the topic of believing is one of those issues where the scripture interprets itself, right where it is written. You don't need the mind of VPW to explain what this means, it is plainly written and easily understandable all by itself: Matt 21-22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Do you believe the above verse and take it literally? If you do, you are likeminded with twi. If you don't, you are not. Perhaps you can explain what the above verse means if it is not to be taken literally.

The problem is, the integrity of the Word, as Dr. Wierwille taught. Does one really believe the written Word? There is no disputing the fact that the written word teaches that results follow those who believe. So go ahead and blame twi and the offshoots and other groups for believing the scriptures. They'll probably thank you for the compliment.

As I see it, this topic is all about scripture and how much one believes it, not necessary twi. Jesus did say results would follow those who believe. So then if results don't follow, maybe one is not believing? Seems logical to me. I think TWI is getting a bad rap here. It is as plain as day that the scriptures teach believing as a concept to receive results.