oldiesman

It was taught in the context , the purpose, of believing in and for the promises of God. Even the "law of believing" has rules and guidelines wherein it must be applied. In PFAL, it was taught in the greater context of "How to Receive Anything from God". If you ignore that, like Dr. Juedes and Raf does, you'll miss the intent of the entire teaching. Just think about how it was used in twi. Did you ever hear VP teach that one may believe to win the lotto, for example?

I didn't say that someone else did. Golly , you seem perterbed today Raffy. Take a breather, relax. I'd offer you a nice cigar if you were here. :)

Wait a second. Jesus Himself said "whosoever". And whosoever means whosoever. That's where he got the saint and sinner alike from so it does have a biblical foundation. No, and I get what you're saying. But God's ways are different than man's. God requires believing. If not, then everyone would be saved whether or not they believed. Some people do believe this, btw...

And you and Dr. Juedes are misrepresenting Wierwille when you say his teaching was atheistic. You and Dr. Juedes are ignoring the context in which believing was taught, and when you ignore context, you can pull anything out of its context to prove anything. SHAME ON YOU BOTH. SHAME SHAME SHAME

Well I'll go out on a limb and answer this question, subject to possible correction. NO! I would imagine if folks could receive the promises of God without knowing or believing them, knowledge and believing wouldn't be a requirement for receiving. Review the bible especially Jesus' own words. Believing was a requirement to receive!

Same thing. I see that as an accusation that the focus of twi folks was not on God. You don't see that as insulting? I didn't spend 19 years in twi to be insulted like that from someone who doesn't know me or walk in my shoes.

As you describe it, it was taught like it was a witchcraft tool. Could be godly, could be ungodly as well. Balderdash. VP taught the law of believing in the context of how to receive anything from God. God was in the picture and involved. That was the point... to receive the blessings that God has made available. The idea that VP was promoting atheism is a lie constructed from an accusatory mindset against VP and twi.

Dr. Juedes did. NO GOD NEEDED means or equal ATHEISM. I find Dr. Juedes' rationale to be deceiving and insulting.

Right on Larry. The "law of believing" teaching was included in the greater context of "In Order To Receive Anything From God" Obviously God is needed. This is not atheism. I guess Dr. Juedes left out that little tidbit of information.

How is God in the picture? When VP taught believing, he taught that there are over 900 some promises in the Word for people to prosper and be in health. How many do you know? How many do you believe? This is what he taught among so many other things. If someone believes a kakamaymee lie that VP actually taught atheism, then I'd say they are off their rocker.

I don't think so. It's the same to me. When I listen to these folks I think of PFAL. I think it's also a great example of Dr. Juedes accusatory mindset. Of course God was in the picture when VP taught believing. If we were talking atheism, I would not have hung around for 19 years.

I agree but would argue that these acts are not fruit at all, they are sins. Can someone who does rape, adultery and alcohol be saved? Of course. But if not, then Jesus hasn't saved to the uttermost and his sacrifice didn't cover some sins. God help us if that's true because those who hate Wierwille so much that they can't stop focusing on his sins may be in deep dooo dooo too. Along with a whole host of sinners who have sinned in this manner.

John said he was in the spirit on the Lord's day. The Book of Revelation is a exposition of the future, not the present. The Lord's day is future, when Christ (and God) will walk and talk among us. That's what the Hope is all about. As I see this, we have Christ in us and among us via the holy spirit and the scriptures. But Christ Himself is not here; he has ascended and God has seated him on his right hand. Christ himself is not here. If Christ himself were here and present, he wouldn't need to return.

Well then on this basis, I don't see Dr. Wierwille being a false prophet or a bad tree. Why? Golly because good Godly fruit was produced by him, was manifested and confirmed through his teaching ministry. Gee if ya can't see that one, you'll never see it. Some posters don't want to, can't, or refuse, to recognize the good fruit Dr. produced.

Welcome Doug, I feel the same as you. Hope to read more of your posts.

Lifted Up, I still have the book :) , and here is the exact quote: Victor Paul Wierwille Jesus Christ is Not God Introduction, pp. 4-5

Yes I can see that. But then again, you wrote in a previous statement, Or which one is teaching, since they are all one? So then are you saying that according to trinitarian doctrine, IF one talks with and fellowships with JESUS, one also is fellowshipping with God and the Holy Spirit, since they are all one? Then that would mean, IF one talks with and fellowships with GOD, one also is fellowshipping with Jesus and the Holy Spirit, since they are all one? IF one talks with and fellowships with THE HOLY SPIRIT, one also is fellowshipping with God and Jesus, since they are all one? ?? Is that correct? Gotta go now. Have a great labor day weekend, one and all!

The bible does say we now see through a glass darkly. But when we see him face to face, we will know, as we are known. I'm looking forward to it.

Not to me. I love it. Helps to keep the thread counts up. ;)

Applies to all Christians, twi, and including former twi, to twi.

Jesus said "my father is greater than I". He Jesus made available the opportunity for me to speak with God the Father, directly, via holy spirit born within. Why is it so important that I must ask Jesus and direct my prayer to Jesus? If you do that, that's your belief and I have no quarrel with it. But why can't one just ask God in Christ's name and that be satisfactory? Does Jesus have a problem with that?

Absolutely, via Holy Scriptures and Holy Spirit! :)

Another Dan, are you saying that if someone does not talk with Jesus daily, they have not made him Lord?

Another Dan, according to the previous verses given by T-Bone, Jesus said that he would send another comforter, the holy spirit, that would do the teaching and counselling. Seems to me that means a Christian's communing means directly with God. Jesus, through his death resurrection and ascension made it available for us to commune with God Himself directly via the holy spirit, born within us. I have thanked both God and Jesus for this.

Your lifestyle is not plainly stated in the gospels. I read the above verses, it says "the counselor the holy spirit" .... "will teach you and remind you..." Seems to me you are communing with God who is Holy Spirit... I don't see any teaching instruction or detailed explanation of specific daily communing with the man Jesus or resurrected Christ. Haven't seen any detailed teaching instructions like that in the book of Acts or Epistles let alone the Gospels. I would think such a specific lifestyle of talking with Jesus and him talking with you (which seems to be the cornerstone of some Christians beliefs) should be spelled out in scripture. But but BUT if that is the way you see it when you pray and commune with Jesus, and that's what you want to do, I'm not quarreling with you. To each his own. But I deeply question when twi and offshoots and those who SIT and give thanks and prayers well with their understanding in the name of Jesus Christ, are labelled as somehow being deficient in honoring Christ or understanding his immense greatness. I think its a bum rap.