oldiesman

Let's start with one example, Dr. Juedes. His "Godly Mission" is to expose the evils of twi. But talk to him about anything good that happened in twi, anything that glorifies God, or how folks got blessed, and he's not interested. It doesn't serve his purpose. Look, when people consider only bad and not good, something's wrong someplace! Goey if you ever talk to Dr. Juedes, mention to him that you probably got born again in twi (something you wrote a long time ago that I have never forgotten) and see what his reaction is.

Goey, its a pity you started this thread on Friday when the weekend is approaching and I'll be absent. :) Golly, how about Rascal's false accusation that innocents died at VP's hands? She is condemning Wierwille for killing people, with no regard to Wierwilles heart or intent on these matters. She's judge, jury and executioner. That is condemnation. I know all Pharisees were not murderers. But no, its not fair to compare Wierwille to those Pharisees who Jesus called children of the devil, and later murdered him. Wierwille gets regularly compared to the worst of the worst of society by some posters who focus and magnify his sins and see only through that little prism.

Rascal, when you post it usually recalibrates itself. :)

Exposition of a cruelty is good. But what I think some posters do is go way beyond exposition into evil surmising, judging of people's hearts and motives, pharaseeism. All the while portraying themselves as righteous believers who want to rescue folks from twi. For one, I think it is extremely inconsiderate to keep on condemning and ridiculing folks who choose their religion... for better or for worse, it is their choice to be in twi. Second, my BS COUNTER goes off the scale when reading that these unrelenting condemnations are supposedly motivated by God, Jesus, holy spirit, or liking them to Jesus condemning the Pharisees. The Pharisees were children of the devil who ultimately murdered our Lord Jesus. And some of you have the gall to compare Wierwille to them. Shame on some of you.

Thank God Wierwille and TWI were around to reach me and thousands of folks with the Word of God. Heck, I'm still glad twi and the offshoots are still around... they can help folks who need help. BTW I feel the same way about the RC church, despite their past atrocities. God will deal with VPW sins; "vengence is mine, I will repay" saith the Lord. Hey its FRIDAY. Getting ready for the weekend? I am. :)

Apples and oranges. Jesus and Paul were accountable for what they said, i.e., you knew it was them making the statements. You can look in their eyes, see them and even talk back. Many times, it was up close and personal. There was a genuine, human, in your face give and take. There's something anticeptic and cruel about finger pointing others' sins anonymously behind a computer. Yes I do characterize that as evil and hateful sometimes. Sometimes I feel like the biggest finger pointers should have a website dedicated to THEIR sins and see how they cope.

OK Waysider, thanks for the correction. I was quoting from the PFAL syllabus and hadn't looked at the advanced. Thanks.

Eagle, I clicked your link and saw a small statement that might need revision, regarding the unforgivable sin: I am unaware that VPW ever taught that the seed boys get "unholy spirit." What was taught and memorialized in the syllabus was "the seed of Satan". Just like one would receive the seed of Christ, another would receive the seed of Satan. Whatever that seed is seems vague now. I never really understood it, honestly. I think the teaching developed into something entirely different than "spirit" or even "unholy spirit". In fact wasn't it LCM who taught it was some kind of a physical organ or transmitter in the body (as told in athletes)?

BTW, if you will send me a complimentary copy of your book, I will read it and give you a detailed critique from one who doesn't hate Wierwille. :o :)

I think that would be better. If you can do it in a way that doesn't get personal, then the debate would be about ideas and not people.

Mike, you made an agreement to limit your posting? You dirty dawg you. :o :D

Can you share your specific incident(s) with all the details so folks can understand you better? Without specific facts I'm unable to make a judgment about the situation you speak of one way or the other.

yes that is about right.

Waysider: you seem perturbed about something. here is my response: (1) when did I ever say that Wierwille did no wrong? At times he was swell. At times, he wasn't. (2) who said I have a "knight in shining armor" image of Wierwille? (3) I never suggested that he never publically taught that "we(TWI believers ) were the chosen ones and had replaced the Jews as God's people." But now that you mention it, Wierwille taught that all born again believers are "God's Chosen People" and he didn't believe that today's Jews were God's Chosen People because he didn't believe the Jews were the biblical Judeans. Even so, I also think he believed that today's Jews are just like everybody else, body and soul before getting born again. I got the impression that he taught that they have no special connection with God or immunity from death resulting from being unsaved. All of this does not mean he hated Jews. It means he saw them just like everyone else... in need of a Lord and Saviour.

Don't know what to tell you other than I have mixed emotions at present.

I don't make that connection. I believe a person can believe in Revisionist thought, without hating the Jews. The Revisionists believe that the Holocaust, or various parts of it, was not true. That belief is not necessarily equal to or means that one hates Jews. It "can" mean that, but it would depend on other factors too. Its just not fair to label someone as hating a whole race/religion of people because he may have different views on what occurred in the past.

As I see it, he certainly was not anti-Semetic, because he loved Jewish folks enough to invite them into twi. Racists and Jew haters dont want to spend time with those they hate. Hitler wanted the Jews removed from Germany. When someone can prove that Wierwille wanted the Jews removed from twi, then you can call him anti-Semetic. Until then, it's a bum rap. Similarly, he wasn't pro Nazi. Nazism is fascism, which is a governmental totalitarian regime. VPW didn't believe in totalitarianism. He believed in the American form of government, a free enterprise system, and limited Republic. He was proud to be an American and had great respect for those in the armed forces who fought against Fascism in WW II.

A few months back, I saw the following 60 minutes segment which was quite moving to me, Hitler's Secret Archive

That bird had INTENT. After he enters the establishment, notice how he looks around to check if anyone's looking. And after he leaves, his steps become swifter. He knew what he was doing!

I don't think you were mean but you seemed a bit snobbish. I would love to speak with JW to share with them the truth I learned in TWI that Christians are saved by Gods grace, through faith; not by works. JW believe in salvation by works and maybe they won't accept it now, but maybe someday they will. Then I would proceed to praise God for all the scriptures we do agree on. Jesus Christ is not God, dead are dead, homosexuality is sin, etc etc. There's plenty to discuss without being condescending.

JOY JOY JOY

Well I don't want to miss the big picture, that's for sure. I can't speak of what's going on today but in my 19 years in twi, I didn't notice twi teaching that "Jesus used the law of believing to rise from the dead". As a matter of fact, I never even thought of that until you brought this topic up. Faith is ok with me. :)

That's not how I read the above verses. I don't see contrition as being a requirement for man to man forgiveness. But the scripture says if one has ought against any, if one has a problem with any, one has a complaint, a problem. Doesn't say in those verses one way or the other whether the came asking for your forgiveness. But it stills says to forgive, otherwise, your sins will not be forgiven. Man does not always express contrition. Maybe the man is dead, or blinded, or tricked, or fooled, or walking in darkness, or otherwise can't or doesn't see. It must be a big deal to God to have it written in those threatening terms.

Doojable, its FRIDAY. FRIDAY. the day before the WEEKEND. How about the following verses? if these are not demanding (or commanding), or at least a statement of God's heart and what he wants us to do, I don't know what would be: Mar 11:25 ¶ And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

As I see it he wouldn't have followed through with the cross if he didn't believe.