oldiesman

I am no expert but do believe they were trying desperately to help her keep her vow to God.

Nero, That's a good question, but first let me share a little short story. I was sitting in my apartment a number of years ago, and all at once it started to rain hard. I looked up and noticed that one of the windows was leaking water and getting the books wet that were on the ledge next to the window. I immediately called the landlord, and complained about the leak. He came over, and when he walked in, he looked at me like I was an idiot and said "why don't you move those books out of the way"? Now for an example, there's "Marsha". The following is a summary (if these facts are wrong, someone will chime in to correct): "Marsha" was invited to Wierwille's motor coach. She was given a drink, and fell asleep. She wakes up on the bed, and Wierwille says "I could have screwed you, but I didn't". She leaves the coach, and is furious. Next day, SHE CHOOSES TO GO BACK TO WIERWILLE'S COACH!! At that point, Wierwille had sex with her. And so according to these facts, I believe "Marsha" is partly responsible for getting abused. She went back to Wierwille AFTER she was drugged. How could anyone call this encounter "rape"? There is an old Chinese proverb: "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me". Marsha gets fooled, yet goes back later and has sex with Wierwille. Nero, if you don't understand this point, I will give you another.

LKH, I don't know that this is supposed to be a "safe" forum to help women. My understanding is that posters may express opinions of all kinds, no holds barred, as long as done with due respect. Sometimes these opinions can be very controversial and extremely emotional. But I maintain that we all are better off getting everyone's opinion out there on the table rather than dealing with some form of censorship. This is why I think the GS forums are such a great place to be. :)

No it wasn't. God does require us to keep our vows. (Numbers 30:2) I think you believed that too, which was why I believe you chose the abortion. You made a commitment to the corps, and wanted to honor that commitment, and the corps leadership helped talk you into keeping that commitment.

Lifted Up, I get what you're saying! If the anti-Wierwille/twi posters would render the same judgment and condemnation they do to others and other groups, as they do with Wierwille and twi, they'd be way too busy all day long finding fault with half the world! They'd likely go crazy. But their contempt against twi is justified since they are exposing the evil there. One has only so much hours in the day. :) Thanks for your input.

Welcome LKH, No not at all, I'm not saying it was all the woman's fault. I'm saying that the women are partly responsible, depending on the facts of the situation. No, the leadership is not without any blame.

Actually no. I believe what I'm doing is rendering opinions. No more, no less.

Rascal, my family has nothing to do with this and, I was not treated anymore special than anyone else. In fact, my letter writing to hq questioning decisions made got me a reputation of being somewhat of a pain in the foot. I didn't dismiss evil that I saw, and actually confronted what I knew wasn't right. I have letters to prove it. Treated special? I was thrown out of the corps when I screwed up. I could blame others for this, and did for a while, but finally came to the realization that it was all my fault. It was. I was to blame. If you would stop blaming others for actions and decisions you made, maybe you'll be free to release the hurt and bitterness in your heart.

I mean , what do you expect? These were very serious people. Did you expect them to just allow you to leave, to hell with you, after you had made the commitment for the Corps? I don't think they could have just left you the hell alone and be right with God. That would have been absurd.

But had you not gotten pregnant in the first place, the twi machine wouldn't have had to get involved to try to convince you that keeping your vow was paramount according to scripture. I see them as trying to do everything possible to help convince you to keep your commitment. From their perspective, they were "doing the word" ... (Numbers 30:2)

Women could have went home if they desired to have the child. Don't you get tired of blaming others? Women who want to have children have them.

Yep, I think that is insanity. I thought they ended up dead "at the hands of VP". now you're saying "at the hands of the coordinator". Doesn't matter, as long as you blame someone else! Insanity. Yes it is.

Nero you are always free to PM me and we can communicate privately, if you like.

No, Victor Paul Wierwille had nothing to do with that death. He doesn't control the spirit of suicide, and I'm sure had he been around to help this man, he would have tried to help him. I think its insane to keep blaming Wierwille for the actions of others. I think the vast majority of the women who had abortions do accept responsibility for their actions and decisions. It's only a few posters who keep on beating the drum that these women were victims of Wierwille.

He bailed out the corps participants who got pregnant. I think he did a good thing. Do you think it would have been better had he dismissed the women from the Corps altogether? Then he'd be blamed for that too! Hey it's all his fault. He shouldn't have been born.

I think its a weak argument. Its like saying Horace Smith and Daniel B. Wesson have blood on their hands for gun deaths. Its like saying Lee Iacocca has blood on his hands for automobile deaths. etc.

Dot Matrix, For someone who doesn't want to dig, you sure did here. But please spare me the condescending guilt trip routine. I was rendering an opinion to something Excathedra said. We are allowed to do that here. I didn't doubt her testimony, or call her a liar. If you don't see the difference, that's not my problem. And BTW, Excathedra is a big girl and doesn't need you to be her nursemaid and mother hen. She's a big girl and can speak for and defend herself. If she was offended and hurt by my post, she can call me on it herself, or PM me privately anytime. WOW! here you have maligned a fellow believer in Christ, one who has done you no harm. Does your nastiness and cattiness have no bounds? Are you mad at me so that gives you license to try to hurt someone else in the process? What is wrong with you? You have based your statement on vicious rumors, backbiting and innuendo. No proof at all, yet you state this as happening, manner of factly. You are pitiful and petty. You tried to hurt people by that statement, but I think all you've done is damage your own credibility. Imagine, one of the premier anti-Wierwille attack-dog-storytellers engaging in vicious rumor and innuendo.

Goey, It is not my burden to prove it false. I opined that the statement "innocents died at VP's hands" was a false accusation. That is my opinion. If Rascal or you or anyone else wants to prove the statement to be true, thereby proving my opinion to be false, go right ahead and try to. BTW, nice try in changing the meaning of Rascal's statement "innocents died at VP's hands" to "VPW had a role in it". :) :lol: I am reasonably sure Rascal meant EXACTLY as I took it, that VPW was directly responsible for the deaths of people...

Doojable, Before I go accusing the Way of new doctrine, i.e, now teaching that born again believers can turn into the devil's children, I would have to find out from the source. I suspect that if these things were said by LCM, that Craig was perhaps performing one of his rants. But I really don't know. If you can prove that TWI now teaches that, go ahead. But my previous statement that those ex-way who are calling Goey a child of the devil "must not respect VPW's teachings too much any more" to refer to him that way, makes perfect sense to me.

Goey I am going to be absent for a couple of days and can't answer any more of your posts until then. This thread is so much fun. Have a good day. :)

Goey, I will answer your question this way. A poster said "innocents died at VP's hands". I stated that was a false accusation. I'm not calling the poster a liar, because the poster believes that allegation to be true and yet, it is an allegation that can't be reasonably proven, so I believe it is false. A lot of what we post are simply opinions. I have mine, you have yours, etc. Try not to be so sensitive.

Am not hiding behind anything. I think there's a way to call someone's post false and exaggerated without calling the poster a liar. Are you ok Goey? You don't seem your usual calm self. Perhaps you are having a bad day so I would suggest you take a deep breath, relax, sit back and enjoy a couple of slugs:

No it isn't. There is a difference between calling someone a liar, and saying a statement of theirs is false and exaggerated. Sunesis you are an intelligent person and I'm sure you can understand this if you want. For instance, if someone said they believe PFAL is God - Breathed. Is that person a liar? No, not if they believe that statement to be true. On the other hand, what they have said is false and exaggerated and has been proven to be false and exaggerated. So you can say that that poster engages in exaggeration, without calling them a liar. Same can be said for the statement "innocents died at VP's hands". That statement is false and exaggerated and can't be proven in any reasonable way. But since the person writing it believes it to be true, the poster shouldn't be called a liar.

Goey you have just falsely accused me of calling witnesses liars. There are over 4,000 posts of mine, and maybe 1 of them, several years ago, referred to a poster as lying. So shame on you for the false accusation. While I believe there is a distinct probability that some posters repeatedly engage in false accusations, exaggerations and innuendo, calling direct eye witnesses outright liars is an ignorant act that I do not engage in. Regarding your "child of the devil" comment; Way believers, even former ones, who call you a child of the devil must not respect VPW's teachings too much any more to refer to you, a known born again believer, as a child of the devil.

That statement doesn't make sense. To the best of my knowledge Way believers don't go around accusing born again believers of being children of the devil.