oldiesman

But which apostles? He did not say. He taught "the apostles feet"; not "me" or "my feet" (speaking of himself). He did not say "tithing works only in twi". Let's be accurate with what he taught. Dr. Juedes said: "VPW conveniently determined that the giving had to be to him in order to count." Not so. That statement is inaccurate... according to CSBP it counted elsewhere also. "You show me a tithing congregation and I will show you a church that is blessed of God". Page 38

Even saying "tithes went to the trustees" would have been more accurate than saying "tithes to VP". As a former participant, I do remember the heart and intent of the monies were to go for "the outreach of the Word of God" and it was in that heart and mindset that the monies (at least mine) were given. Who benefited? Not only VP ... When folks got blessed and the word moved, everyone benefited. And as it says in the bible, "give and you shall receive" so there was benefit to the giver as well, something Jesus taught consistently. Also benefited many employees of twi who received pay for their work. Also inaccurate was the remark about tithing supposedly only counting in twi. VPW taught otherwise.

I know nothing of the sort. All I know is to go by what he taught and wrote and at this point refrain from making an assumption. And no, tithing to VPW IS DIFFERENT than tithing to twi. He didn't say "tithe to the man of God" or even "tithe to me". He said what he said, let's be accurate. I think TWI was much more than just VPW alone. Words mean something and I oppose fudging words like that.

I agree in part .... Although he did write in CSBP that the best place to tithe was (not to himself but) to a biblical research ministry rightly dividing the Word, that doesn't mean it did not count elsewhere. As I recall CSBP says that tithing is immutable and worked for everyone who applied it. He specifically cited the Mormons as those who applied it and prospered. Also, being an immutable law suggests that it is colorblind and would work for everyone (saint and sinner alike) who met that condition irrespective of religious beliefs, race, color or creed. This is what VPW taught... I dont believe that tithing is an immutable law anymore but let's at least be accurate about exactly what he said.

If someone wants to trash the carnal mind, then I think that would have been different. The carnal mind is trashed in scripture no matter who it is (saint and sinner alike) or where they might be or who they fellowship with. Contrast that with the term "Waybrain" ... appears to be trashing only Way participants irrespective of whether they have a carnal mind or not, whether they do God's will or not. I don't know all of these people but it seems to label all of them nuts because of the religious affiliation. Joe Smith wants to attend fellowships in twi therefore he is afflicted with "Waybrain". Seems like not a very nice thing to say about people who for all anyone knows wants to simply participate in a religion; personally I prefer to get to know people first before labelling in a negative way and even then would think twice because this is the U.S. of America with freedom of religion.

Or as they said in the good old days "two wrongs don't make a right." I agree with WhiteDove that Waybrain is a deragatory term. It's a put down...like the word cult. Sort of like being intolerant of others' beliefs. Although GS putdowns are allowed (as long as not directed at fellow posters) someone once said "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" ... I think that principle works well and is appreciated.

The video was on YouTube but apparently was removed due to copyright violation. (I removed the video... not sure if it is allowed to be linked on here.)

I think they believe that the ministry programs are in accordance with what the Lord would want so there is little difference, ultimately one has to decide if it represents what the Lord would want, and I believe those who participate in twi think they are doing that. BTW I think this is true of all religion... for instance the religion of my youth has programs they think the Lord wants, so they think they are serving the Lord with gladness too. They could be. I have more tolerance today then many years ago. But at the same time, I don't condemn twi for having programs either ... this is America with freedom of religion, I thank God we have it.

Obviously not as Jesus himself appeared and condemned his actions. With Christians today, I think it depends on the heart and mindset of the person making the decision. If a heart and mindset is to obstruct and hate and want Christians destroyed, I think no. If a heart and mindset is to have a desire to help people learn God's will as Jesus did, I think yes. Col. is addressed to Christians who have a desire to put God first in their life so I don't see why it wouldn't apply to folks in twi... if that is their mindset to put God first, they are part of the body of Christ just like any other Christian would be...

Why can't the Lord and the ministry be served at the same time? In singleness of heart, fearing God: Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. It is possible to serve the Lord Christ in twi, or by selling donuts at Dunkin Donuts if that is where someone with the heart and mindset of Col 3:23,24 happens to work.

Wordwolf, I am not skilled in biblical research (never suggested that at any time) have no desire in that arena and further have no desire to debate doctrinal issues. However, I would like to render an opinion in this thread which I have done. From Merriam Webster's edition: Main Entry: 1eter·nal Pronunciation: \i-ˈtər-nəl\ Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin aeternalis, from Latin aeternus eternal, from aevum age, eternity — more at aye Date: 14th century 1 a: having infinite duration : everlasting <eternal damnation> b: of or relating to eternity c: characterized by abiding fellowship with God <good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? — Mark 10:17(Revised Standard Version)> 2 a: continued without intermission : perpetual <an eternal flame> b: seemingly endless <eternal delays> 3archaic : infernal <some eternal villain…devised this slander — Shakespeare> 4: valid or existing at all times : timeless <eternal verities> The dictionary meaning of "eternal" is "having infinite duration" or "everlasting". Assuming that is true, there are only two choices in the coming age: life, or death. So what's the bottom line of Mark's research of the word "eternal" that is doesn't really mean "everlasting"? That God promises us eternal life but it may mean eternal death? I don't think that makes any sense. If there is an argument otherwise, Mark and anyone else is free to make it, but right now I don't buy the claim. It seems like a severely watered down version of the intent of God's promise.

With ultimately two big choices available, everlasting life or everlasting death, am very confident the promise of God is everlasting life in the age to come, not everlasting death in the age to come. "My child I will give you eternal life in the age to come then at the appropriate time throw you in the lake of fire and you can burn to a crisp" doesn't make sense...

I don't know that twi used this "as a magical shield to do any dam2 thing they wanted.." because they also taught about loss of rewards as a tangible loss for eternity as a consequence of living in very specific sin as warned in the scriptures. I agree with you that one cannot lose their salvation. It is quite simple. Being born again means being born "from above". That life born from above is eternal life, it cannot die. The new man is eternal.

I grew up in the Bronx so the Yanks were my team. The first time was just magnificent... the old facade which was torn down many years ago was my favorite. Dad had box seats right behind first base -- $4.00 each. The game that was perhaps the most memorable for me was in 1968, I think it was Mantle's last game in Yankee Stadium. He hit 2 homers against the Minnesota Twins but the Yanks lost the game, and I remember the newpaper caption the next day: "Minnesota 3, Mickey Mantle 2".

I pass the Stadium every day going to work but haven't been inside for years. What a great story! I hope they have a great time and perhaps they also can visit the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown sometime. Was there a few weeks ago and had a good time...

I believe my calling to the Body of Christ through twi was the genuine just as someone else involved in any other church group would consider their calling to the Body of Christ the genuine. Not of works, but by God's own purpose and grace. 2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Vince Finnegan is a brother in Christ and I wish him well.

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He's taking on a big responsibility and I wish him well.

All that meant was that someone was "out of fellowship" and susceptible to evil happening to them; but sonship was not affected.

Its the same as when parents have children who may not get along with them. John is the son of Fred and Mary. John will always be the son of Fred and Mary even though John may not get along with Fred and Mary right now. Why? Because of seed. John will always be the son of Fred and Mary no matter where he is. Spiritually it is the same. Christians who are born again have the seed of Christ born within , that cannot be changed, will always be children of God no matter who they may fellowship with and what religion (or lack thereof) they may hold onto.

No.

would anyone like to attend a fellowship with me? let's say hi to the boogeymen and have a twinkie.

I think the "choice" discussion became an issue when someone suggested that this man is brainwashed and in bondage. The choice argument is not defending twi; it is respecting this man's choice as a citizen of this country to choose what religion he participates in even when one might not agree with the tenets of that religion. I think it's really good that you see your knee-jerk reaction. I don't think some folks are able or willing to do that. As a general observation: when some ex-twi folks get to the place that peoples' associations with twi don't bother them anymore and they can let people's associations and choices with twi go, and wish these folks the best and best wishes, then I think they will be at peace and can move on. I did that with the religion of my youth... I wish those folks the best too and spend zero time trying to dissuade their decision.

I am happy for him and wish him and twi best wishes ... this is America and folks have a right to choose their own religious group. Thank God for freedom of choice and freedom of religion.