oldiesman

Eyesopen, thanks for your comment about my personal experiences. It is appreciated. Regarding Rascals posts, has it ever occured to you that my attacks against Rascal's posts are giving them credence and respect enough for a detailed response? As opposed to your statement, "you are not worth that much energy to me". Well for me, Rascalian Theology is worth responding to! I think that's better than putting her posts on ignore or saying her posts aren't worth that much of my energy.

Bowtwi, When someone says that Romans 10:9 and 10 is a formula, that comment is trashing scripture. It's making a derogatory comment about a promise of God. That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it. I don't think so Bowtwi. It's not a personal attack to say that someone's post is trashing scripture. We are talking about ideas here, not people. But if you do think that a posting is getting personal with a poster please go ahead and report it and see what the moderators say. What way? Being direct? Challenging viewpoints and communicating what I think of those viewpoints? This is exactly what the forums are here for... I AM addressing others as I would like them to address me. I am speaking to the viewpoints, not getting personal. I like that others do the same. Bowtwi, please, if you don't understand the difference and what it means to get personal, please email Paw and he will explain it to you. But wasting your time judging my posts are just that, a waste of your time and mine. Let's talk about the issues.

Rascal, I don't know about the treatment of his dog but whenever I viewed one they didn't look abused. Regarding my experiences with the man, I'm bearing witness to what I saw and experienced. Anything other than that for me would be bearing false witness.

Ham, It's still a question of faith. The whole bible is like that for us today. Did anyone here ever actually see Jesus? I haven't. Its faith. "Blessed are those who have not seen yet have believed". Bowtwi, the forums are here for lively discussion and debate. This was never meant to be a safe zone where ideas and viewpoints go unchallenged.

When we are in the Kingdom of God for all eternity, do we have a choice to leave? I don't think so. Who would want to leave anyway? But if that's true, then when one becomes born again, they are a new creature. That new life has no choice, its eternal life. You can't kill eternal life. It's a different kind of life, a perfect life form without free will to reject God, like we have today in our bodies.

Oakspear, I believe when one rejects Christ, they are rejecting God's redemptive plan for themselves and mankind. Jesus is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Doesn't matter how "good" we are or appear to be or live, we are still sinners. Every one of us. But folks are not living a Christ-like life anyway who wilfully reject him, no matter how good they think they are and how many good works they think they do. I know it sounds a bit narrow, but there's only one Messiah to go around. Folks are not saved by good works. Besides why would any devout, honorable person who does good works want to wilfully reject Christ's messianic mission? Something else is going on there. To those who never heard about Christ, I believe God will take that into full account. Young children who died for instance. Perhaps even our beloved animals.

Waysider, I think he said that true SIT can't be counterfeited, and that makes sense. If a person knowingly fakes SIT, they know they are faking. If the same person knowingly SIT with a sincere belief in the heart, that is not faking. That is SIT to that person. Like a lot of stuff in the bible, it is an act of faith and belief. Anybody can say SIT is nonsense and many christians do. But at that point in PFAL when we asked God to manifest holy spirit, that was real. The born again experience we had, was real. Asking God to help us manifest the gift is real. Now, if someone says many years later that they were faking it, then I have to take them at their word. But it wouldn't negate anyone elses experience. Me too. Oklahoma, please clarify your belief about whether or not someone can be saved if they don't believe that Jesus is God. Thanks.

Sirguessalot, Romans 10: 9, 10 is the word of God, and a promise of God. So is John 3:16. Once you start mislabelling and disparaging the word saying they are "formulas" you're watering it down and doing it harm. You are trashing it. Yeah, your process sounds a little like "works", and you know what the bible says about salvation by works.

That's perfectly fine with me. :) Iron sharpeneth iron. Who said I ONLY address Rascal's arguments? My point was that the THEOLOGY is being targeted, not the person. This isn't about personal attacks; do you ever hear me whining that folks are ganging up on me? Please quit playing the victim card.

Eyesopen, if you saw love in a person, joy in Christ, peace in Christ, gentleness, goodness, etc. and Rascal who wasn't even there said it was a counterfeit; I think you too may be asking many questions and seeking specific clarification of that position. The bottom line is, and I'll say this as nice as I can: Rascal doesn't know what the heck she's talking about with respect to my experiences.

Rascalian Theology is the target, not Rascal. It isn't personal.

Oklahoma, do you believe that unless a person believes that Jesus is God, they are not saved? That's what I believe concerning Dr. Wierwille, because I saw him walk the talk of a born again Christian.

Waysider, I agree in part with you. I do think he operated the manifestions much in his life but would agree that his lustful behavior didn't seem to depict that. In that sense one needs to look at all the evidence of his life, including his good points, what his children have to say about him, and the benefit of his teaching ministry on folks who appreciated it, those who state they learned great truths about God and Christ from him; and not look just at his sins.

Rascal, it isn't straight forward when you say someone is viewing a counterfeit and you are viewing the genuine. You haven't explained how to detect the genuine. All you did here was list fruit of the spirit from scripture without showing how to identify that fruit. Until you do, its more hot air. Loving God and loving your neighbor are in the category of good thoughts and good works, and you said previously that good works are not fruit of the spirit. Are good thoughts? Moreover, non Christians have the ability to love God and love your neighbor as well. I'm thinking of Jews, Hindus, and Moslems, etc., and all religions have that potential. Therefore this is not evidence of Christian fruit of the spirit, or how to identify it.

BTW, here's another question for you Rascal: Was the fruit that Jesus was speaking of the same as the fruit of the spirit in Galatians? When Jesus spoke those words about fruit, pentecost had not yet come. Please explain.

This verse was addressed to Christians, warning them that if they walked by the flesh, there would be no rewards, no inheritance in the kingdom of God. It does not say these folks shall not "enter" the kingdom; it says they shall not "inherit" the kingdom. What about a Christian's sonship, what about God's forgiveness, what about Jesus as the lamb of God to take away the sin of the world, what about God's promise of everlasting life to those who believe in Jesus? I believe you're communicating false doctrine about that verse. Rascal, until you define how to recognize fruit of the spirit, I think your words are meaningless. Please explain how you recognize fruit of the spirit in your "genuine Christian" friends. How do you know they're not just being nice and displaying good manners? Unless you explain yourself, I think you're just blowing hot air...

Rascal, what is your definition of a "genuine" Christian? Is it a born-again Christian?

Another point, Mrs. Wierwille didn't say her husband wasn't a Christian, didn't say her husband didn't walk by the spirit, and didn't say to throw out his teachings or regard them as false. Quite the contrary.

Doojable, if Mrs. Wierwille said that I can understand why ... he WAS mean to her. He cheated on her. That's mean. But does Mrs. Wierwille say he was not a Christian or doesn't KNOW he was, like some here say? NO.

Its a notable point, but doesn't address my question to Rascal about detection of fruit. I would add, that works of the flesh do not negate the fruit of the spirit. It goes back to my question to you about time. Are you saying that if a Christian sins, walks by the flesh one day, it's not possible they can walk in the spirit the next? or the next week? or the next month or year? I say they can, and believe they do. Rascal said I saw "corporate manners" in VPW and not fruit of the spirit. So how does Rascal detect genuine fruit of the spirit then is my question? She said she knows "genuine" Christians, and suggests I saw a counterfeit. So all I'm asking for is clarification on how to detect the genuine.

BTW, you folks who are so concerned about staying on topic; have you noticed that this thread is chock full of off-topic postings? Yet not a word of reproof was said to these postings, especially those of DWBH who veered off topic early on in post #37, and again and again in posts #50, #72, #84, #200, #425 and #520. On and on about the evils of CFF and other off-topic stuff and not all that much about forgiveness. He's not the only one, there are others. Please, if you're going to engage in reproof about staying on topic, at least be even handed about it with all posters, not just the ones you don't like? Thank you.

Wordwolf, saying you're not sure Dr. Wierwille is saved says something about your belief system, which I'm trying to clarify. OK, don't answer. I guess I'll just have to continue to ask for clarification as these issues arise until the question is answered. I have patience.

Wordwolf, if you're suggesting I'm here to tempt you , please lighten up. All I'd like is clarification on some theological positions.

Wordwolf, you may have me confused with another poster... I never said that these sins don't matter, and there is no penalty or accounting for them. Galatians 5 says that Christians who practice the works of the flesh will receive no rewards at the gathering. This is what I believe the bible teaches; I think Rascalian Theology about this issue is false. BTW, this is what TWI taught as well, (no rewards at the gathering). Twi DIDN'T teach there was no penalty. You may have been absent when they taught these things. I would ask you to please define "born again Christian" as you see it. Its important to clarify your position since you're not sure about Dr. Wierwille being born again. Rascal says she doesn't think so. It's certainly important and raises a whole host of other questions about sonship. If you don't know what born again means, you don't know. If you do, please clarify. Even if we don't agree, it's good to hear folks clarify their position about it. Also would like to hear how you identify and detect fruit of the spirit. You obviously think that I don't know how, since you characterize my personal experience with Wierwille as him simply "being a nice guy". Rascal characterized it as "corporate manners". Assuming that's true and he's a counterfeit, how does one detect the genuine? If you know the counterfeit you should also know the genuine. Rascal said she knows the genuine so I'd like to hear from you both. Thank you.

Rascal, You still have not clarified how to detect genuine fruit of the spirit. I stated that I saw genuine fruit of the spirit in Dr. Wierwille; but you said that was "corporate manners". Wordwolf said it was him "being a nice guy". Assuming you and Wordwolf are correct, then please explain how we detect genuine Christian fruit of the spirit. If you really know the counterfeit then you must really know the genuine too. Tell us how to detect it. Give some examples of peoples lives. People you know. Thank you.