oldiesman

I'm not so sure. Even so, the penalty for saying "no" to a king could be a beheading, so there's really no comparison.

I disgree with this viewpoint, at least in part. If you're talking about perpetuating a secret doctrine like "having sex with my twig coordinators wife is just like shaking hands", ok yeah, then I agree. Get rid of that part, and other highly questionable stuff. But the whole of TWI doctrine is a lot more than just the secret doctrines that now have been revealed and condemned. Its also about many wonderful truths that have a permanent place in Christians' hearts that folks want to perpetuate for generations. That's why I'm not condemning groups like CES, CFF and the like; they are trying to perpetuate the good doctrine even though once taught by Victor Paul Wierwille. They realize the fundamental concept that the sins and wrong doctrines of the teacher does not negate the truths and right doctrine in the teachers message, and they are able to separate the fish from the bones and continue.

how the stick people became extinct

Thomas, if you want to help someone I think the loving thing to do would be to PM them and not try to publicly humiliate. You have a right to your own opinion, but to say that your post is "tough love" is lame. I think you're full of crap.

Thank God this is the United States of America with freedom of religion.

I forgot to mention a few other scriptures taught in the context of the law of believing: Remember these scriptures from the Class?: Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. Being strong in faith giving glory to God, and being fully persuaded that what God has promised he was able also to perform, was a vital key in understanding and practicing "the law of believing" as taught in PFAL. This speaks for itself, and reasonable and intelligent folks who practiced these truths can judge for themselves whether the system was atheistic.

Dr. Juedes has done this repeatedly. He's taken "the law of believing" taught in the context of how to receive the things of God and tries to make it sound like God wasn't needed, something like some atheistic voodoo belief we were supposedly practicing. Yes shame on Dr. Juedes for twisting the teachings around. He knows better, but when it comes to twi he can't see it.

I agree. His statement "lots of the stuff I teach is not original" confirms just that. He was confirming he wasn't the only one receiving these truths and he said as much. He said he "learned from men of God scattered across the continent". These men were receiving truths from God. Yes, giving proper written acknowledgement in his books would have been the right thing to do. But the idea that he was trying to palm off his teachings as original (when he tells us they are not, when he tells us who he learned from, when he says he learned from men of God scattered across the continent, and when he sells some of the books he learned from in the Way Bookstore) is simply, a fairy tale.

Hi Phil, I agree in part. Yes, I agree we should never make a claim to have full knowledge of Him and His ways. Even with all the revelation in the bible we only know in part. I would add to your verses the ones in Corinthians: 1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. Not sure about the pride part and what you mean. When people have boldness and confidence in their faith, it doesn't automatically mean they have pride in their own abilities or exalting themselves. I suppose its possible, but we'd have to look at the person's mindset who you may be referring to and what set of circumstances. In any case, I believe God wants us to have great boldness in the faith, and teach with confidence. Consider these verses: Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. 1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. Hbr 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him. 1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. In that last set of verses, I think its clear that the purpose of God's love is so we may have boldness, because as he is, so are we in this world. Ambassadors have confidence and boldness in the power and authority they have been given by their country. We are ambassadors for Christ. As such, we have confidence and boldness in the power and authority given to us by God. Furthermore I think having confidence and boldness in what God has wrought through Christ Jesus is the opposite of having pride in oneself or one's own abilities.

Hi Phil, I agree in part. Yes, Christ's commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. BTW, that was taught in twi in the first 30 minutes or so in the Power for Abundant Living class as "The First and Great Commandment". What I think we may disagree on is in the importance of having knowledge of his will from the bible ... I don't know if you call that "special knowledge", ... but simply understand the importance of knowledge of God's will from the bible. Your statement "we shouldn't ever think we know his will" seems to run counter to that. I think this is one of the biggie's of The Way and therefore you may have strong disagreement with your girlfriend on this. I don't think so. As I understand it, Lucifer already was powerful as one of God's arch-angels ... but that wasn't enough for him, what he wanted was to exalt his throne ABOVE God. Essentially wanted to be God. But that's far different than believers in Christ wanting to have God's power working in their life: Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Eph 1:19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 1Th 2:13 ¶ For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. Jesus said he who believeth on me "the works that I do shall he do also...". Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. So I don't think its about wanting to be God or wanting God's power to exalt one-self for some selfish purpose ... I never thought that about Way people, but I guess you'll have to make up your own mind. Conversely, I think it's all about wanting to do God's will, that is written in God's Word, because one loves God... 1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Hi Phil, From the twi viewpoint ... in the words of Dr. Wierwille "find out what's available from God's Word..." The "law of believing" was taught in the context of believing to receive the written promises of God in the bible. For example, does the bible say is it available for someone to win lotto? No. So praying/believing to win lotto would be out of bounds and wouldn't work. On the other hand, John 10:10 says: Jhn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly. This is the foundational scripture for Power for Abundant Living .... Jesus came so that we might have life, and have it more abundantly. We were taught in twi that life is the greek word "zoe" life in all of its manifestations including eternal life. That is a promise... so praying/believing to receive that life in all of its manifestions would be within God's will and availability, as long as one fulfills the specific condition required for receiving. Jesus said when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. "and what soever ye ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive". Praying for what? The written promises of God. Life in all of its manifestations, among other things. One of Wierwille's lines from PFAL (I write this from memory) was "there are over 900 some promises in the Word for a person to profit and be in health.. how many do you know? The more one knows, the more one can believe to receive". So then according to twi doctrine, having an abundant life is God's will; not dying a horrible and painful death. God is love, and wants the best for people, especially his kids. That is why in your previous example of Peter and Paul, I don't believe it was God's will they die a painful excrusiating death and so forth ... I believe they were fulfilling God's will for their lives by continuing in faith, but I believe the pain, hurt, anguish and death came from the thief, the devil. I don't believe those horrific deaths were in God's plan and further I believe God would work to help them out of those painful deaths. "By his stripes we are healed" Jesus had to endure a painful death so we wouldn't have to. 1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. The idea "we shouldn't ever think we know His will" is the opposite of what you'll experience in twi. We ex-twi were taught that "the word of God is the will of God", so the Word would be the Lord's mind revealed. The word came "as holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." It is the revelation of Jesus Christ. So the Word of God is the will of God and we can know it and believe it. This foundational belief is what you will encounter when dealing with your girlfriend and her parents. 2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: God has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of Him ... that knowledge is in the word of God. Doesn't mean we don't receive knowledge and guidance from the holy spirit, but what is already written God expects us to know and believe.

Hi Phil, Thanks for your response. I just got back and am busy today and I do not post on weekends, so I'll do my best to respond to your post piecemeal and see if we can agree on some points: Essentially yes but with some important qualifiers from Power for Abundant Living (PFAL), the foundational class taught by Dr. Wierwille. Wierwille's first qualifier is "what is available". According to the class, one can't receive something that's not available. Hence the first step becomes to find out what's available. If something isn't available, you can "pray till your blue in the face" and you won't receive because its not available. Another important stipulation is having "needs and wants parallel". In other words , one must need it and want it.In the example you gave about Peter and Paul, which was why I asked if deliverance was available... we really don't know why they died in this way, but let's say it was in God's plan for them to die that way, and they believed that... Then they believed and received. That would be a case for "the law of believing" at work. Its not a case of "they had no faith" or "negative believing" as in they had doubt or worry that God wouldn't help them which I doubt. It all depends on what they knew and how they applied it in their life in that instance. So many variables are possible which is why even bringing up Peter and Paul in this case is unfair because we don't know what they knew at that time in their life. Not quite. The scriptures say it will work out if you both believe. That is a promise from the scriptures and was one of the scriptures that Wierwille used to teach this principle: Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. That is the promise. But who knows if when all the smoke clears you two will agree? That is the question. I agree , it doesn't apply in every situation. There are some things we may think it applies to when it doesn't. Some things we think it doesn't apply to does. I think the honest way to approach it is each situation would determine whether or not it was applicable. BTW, I don't believe "the law of believing on the negative side" I don't believe Jesus taught that. I can't find it in scriptures. There was one verse, Job 3:25 which was essentially the entire case for the negative side, and I can't see that being applicable in every situation in a persons life. Sickness and diseases and accidents can be beyond one's control and thought processes. I believe this was an error of PFAL. It really depends on what was going through their heads at the time. I can't say one way or the other. But if they knew they were going to die as martyrs, then they died having faith/believing... ironically "the law of believing" would apply in that case, but again who knows? On the other hand I don't know that God didn't forwarn them both and they possibly missed the warning... could be possible too...? I have to go now.. hopefully I can post more later but am busy today and am away from the computer on the weekends.

Wing, Just use your common sense. Is it God's will that they suffer a horrible and agonizing premature death? I don't believe so. Golly, earthly fathers are better than that. I'm away from the computer for a few days so i won't be able to respond. Perhaps Mike can take over for me. :o :lol:

Waysider, This isn't about deliverance from natural death.. am not suggesting that ... Peter and Paul didn't just die naturally, they died prematurely by being killed by their enemies in a most horrible and painful way. You are suggesting that God wouldn't have had deliverance available to them. You are suggesting that this painful and horrible death is God's will. Off the top of my head, some of these verses came to mind: Hbr 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and [of] Barak, and [of] Samson, and [of] Jephthae; [of] David also, and Samuel, and [of] the prophets: Hbr 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Hbr 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Hbr 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: It doesn't say they "operated the law of believing" but it does say these things were done through faith/believing. There's a case where Peter raised Dorcas from the dead, through prayer: Act 9:40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning [him] to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up. Wow. Peter had to believe God to bring that to pass. That's believing. It wasn't called "the law of believing", but Peter believed God to bring that to pass. Peter even believed to walk on the water, like Jesus. But you're suggesting that God wouldn't make deliverance available for Peter at his time of need? Sorry, don't buy it. I'd still like to hear what Fr. John says.

Waysider, Are you suggesting that God the Father determined the criteria that He wouldn't have deliverance available for his children Peter and Paul to keep them from experiencing these horrible and painful deaths? My goodness, even flawed earthy fathers are better spoken of about taking care of their kids. Your logic on this particular subject appears to be horrendously flawed and blasphemous.

Wing, Wierwille's explanation on this topic makes more sense to me than the others. When that happens, it is my intent to support it over the others until a more sensible explanation comes along. Fr. John brought up Peter and Paul so I'd like to hear the answer why they died that way from his perspective and see if it makes more sense. The question I ask is this: was deliverance available to Peter and Paul?

Waysider, Was deliverance available? Brideofjc, with the exception of Jesus Christ, I disagree with that opinion. Jesus is the lamb of God to take away the sins of the world. God chose his son to die... it was God's Will... for that reason. And by his stripes we are healed. I believe God wants healing for his people through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and through the power of the holy spirit; THAT, gives glory to God; not misery and death. The law of believing may not make sense but the idea that God actually chooses people (other than Christ) to suffer and die a painful agonizing martyr's death for HIS glory makes even less sense to me.

Hi Phil, Did you ask Fr. John the same question "why did they die"? I'd be interested to know if his answer makes any sense or more sense than twi. I believe God wants his children to live in prosperity and health; i.e., wants the best for his kids in all situations. But when his children get killed, why do these things happen? TWI's attempt to explain this might be something like this: Peter and Paul, who certainly were great believers, died like this because for whatever reason they were not believing God for deliverance in that situation. Could they have been delivered? Yes. What would have delivered them? believing God for deliverance. Jesus said among other things: Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Comparing the twi answer with answers from other religions is one reason why I haven't abandoned the twi teachings. If twi teachings deny reality, and make little sense, answers from other religions make even less sense to me. For instance, the answer from Fr. John (not putting words in his mouth) might be "it was God's Will". Doesn't make sense to me. God wills his children to die like that? I can't believe God would want his children being killed that way when he has given us power to overcome satan and tells us what to do to overcome satan. I believe God would want deliverance for his children from those situations. In any case it would be interesting to compare both views and see which one makes more sense to you.

Phil, I'll give my 2 cents worth... I think the first step is for you to decide if you want to learn about the bible "the twi way". Be honest with them and yourself, whatever you choose. You already know that twi is a big part of your girlfriend and her parents life. If you prefer not to learn more about twi at this time, then I'd be honest about it and move in a different direction as soon as possible. But if you'd like to check twi out for yourself, go ahead. See for yourself if its something you can live with. If after checking them out its not your cup of tea, then depart knowing that you have done the best you can do in that situation but its just not for you.

Phil, Welcome to GS cafe. It's unusual that the doctrinal differences don't come between you and your girlfriend. From the twi perspective, it's usually very important that relationships are with folks who are likeminded doctrinally. Anyway, hope you get some answers.

Warm weather is coming.. look twice for bikes, U.S. Version...

Ex, I do know how you feel having experienced the same feeling. But it was essentially up to the individual believer to decide for themselves whether they could love God outside of twi, and whether God loved them outside of twi. I think that takes one's own personal fellowship with God and Christ along with active faith to overcome that type of peer pressure. I guess I learned this principle early, since during my twi stint, I was "in and out" several times. However I do think that that fear is not all that uncommon with many serious religions. In retrospect I also would note that the ministry position in 1989 according to Craig's Loyalty Letter of 1989, stated plainly that it was possible to put God first outside of the way and walk in mutual love, respect, like mindedness, and one accord. In other words, exiting twi was not turning your back on God. And remember, this was when thousands of believers left the ministry at one time. There was no mistake about this and lots of folks believed they were still walking with God while exiting twi. Here is an excerpt:

I might tend to agree with you if twi wasn't the only group who practiced these scriptures in some form or another, but there are many other religious groups who do. Orthodox Jews, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Amish, just to name a few off the top of my head. Our country prides itself on freedom of religion and twi was/is a part of that.

"I can but you can't" Any other enlightening statements you'd like to share?