oldiesman

Skyrider, Might as well get the quote accurate before you discuss it. The exact quote from PFAL is below. The context on the top of the page was "The Believer's Enemy -- Fear"

Perhaps but not always. Because among other things it may not be so readily apparent that he did something wrong or caused hurt in a particular instance. He may think he was correct, for whatever reason. So that is why it is incumbent for the hurting party to go directly one on one to the person who they think caused the hurt. Matthew 18:15

OK fine, then according to that statement "we" take the place of Christ when performing that manifestation. So why single out Vic?

This finger pointing seems too general. I don't know of any abuse performed by Vince, but why don't the folks who feel they were abused go to Vince personally themselves and ask for an apology? I think that'd be the right way to go about it. Vince is still around and having known him I think he'd be willing to apologize if he knew someone was hurting. Geeze. Get up one on one, face to face, man to man, instead of anonymous internet chatter which solves nothing.

Waaaaait a minute, what are you blaming Alan for he's not even an elected official. Just for clarity, what about Democrats Clinton, Pelosi and Biden, who signed the Glass-Steagall Repeal? Was not that deregulation that opened the door for banks to bundle and invest in these bad loans? You know, they all make a great team, along with Barney Frank (the bad loan king of Freedie and Fannie) who now are stealing billions of taxpayer dollars to try to fix the mess they themselves helped create.

In your own mind. He taught that the Word takes the Master's place in us, the place of Christ. (It takes the Master's place in us.) Just read what he wrote. The fantasies are lame. I use it rarely and didn't know it was taken that way but I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

I second that ... it was a noble effort.

I made the conclusion, true, but it is based upon evidence that you repeatedly gloss over.

Well, this is America, and folks have the liberty to choose which religious group they want to attend, or not attend one at all if that is their choice.

I would agree, except he said "lots of the stuff I teach is not original" which means it wasn't ONLY him who knew the stuff, and he never claimed it was. He backed that up both verbally, and with bookstore books. God's promise to him was (if one believes it happened): "I will teach YOU the Word as it has not been known since the first century..." He didn't say "I will teach ONLY YOU the Word as it had not been known ..." Doesn't mean God didn't teach anyone else or that VPW was the ONLY one God taught. Obviously, it wasn't. The words "ONLY you" change the entire meaning.

Perhaps if you find someone who looked at Dr. Wierwille as a replacement for Christ... confessed him as Lord, then for that person, VPW was Lord. But I don't know of anyone who made VPW Lord and Saviour. It simply is a fraudulent theory... intellectual gobbledygook and dishonesty at its lowest.

Good point on transparency and laziness. President Obama and Congressional Democrats were in such a hurry to sign the spending plan they all didn't read it or even attempt to make it transparent for the American people to read and study it. Republicans and some Democrats complained about the lack of transparency and rush to sign. I think the whole procedure was lazy and irresponsible and non-transparent, from Obama on down. Obama pledged differently, so it is more evidence of Obama dishonesty since Americans are not getting something they voted for: transparency. Obama Dodges Transparency Pledge

I will agree that VPW assented to a man of God status for himself, and even an ambassador for Christ; but won't agree that he assented to a Christ-like or Messiah-like or Saviour-like status for himself. I believe such comparisons while fancifully surmised are intellectually dishonest and fraudulent and not representative of the history of twi.

What is creepy is getting reproof harangue from the queen of finger-pointers.

Lindyhopper, You have applied a false accusation and misrepresented my position... I never said this person stole anything. For all I know, he bought it from someone else who bought it from someone else. What I am saying is these tapes never were meant to be sold or given to private parties and most likely left twi's hands under less than legal circumstances. Could qualify as stolen merchandise. As such, like them or not, they are twi's property and twi does have some rights if they wish to pursue them. Yes, I will defend the way when they are stolen from just like I'll defend anyone else who gets stolen from because theft is wrong. Their past sins are not an excuse ... all theft is still wrong, period. You may hate twi all you desire, but their bad behavior does not justify additional bad behavior.

DWBH, I called them (the trunk office) and asked what their position on this was, and they told me. Their position is, it is their property. I agree ... because from what I know (and you know this is true, being in that position), twi always was the property owner of the tapes and the class was never meant to be sold individually to anyone. So I can be called names but to me, what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. Because they did wrong doesn't justify another wrongdoing to them. Bad behavior doesn't justify more bad behavior.

I'm willing to bet that my former twig coordinators have virtually the same practical lifestyle as they did in twi. i.e., they hold fellowship meetings once a week. The other days of the week, they live their own lives, what they choose to do. They go to special classes once in a while, ones they choose and have committed themselves to. They may witness more, who knows? I don't know what differences there would be from twi on a practical level, i.e., they are Mr. & Mrs. American who love God and run a fellowship once a week.

I fully agree. In fact, I think they should put all the sessions on the net in full color, for everyone to see, free of charge. :o :D

I don't think Vince ever portrayed himself as a Christ-like or Messiah-like figure, and neither did VPW for that matter. The folks feel comfortable with and stand with Vince. They are entitled.. this is America. I wish them well ... and see no problem with their association other than their new doctrine on salvation. :unsure:

Yes I see that... I didn't make sense with that statement ... the point I was trying to make was that these are "essentially" bootlegs in the sense that they can't legally be sold because they are the property of twi. I do agree with Potato in the sense that I think twi has the burden to prove that this particular set being sold on ebay belongs to them. How can they show it to ebay? There are probably ways, but do they want to go through all that hassle? I find it very interesting and maybe they will just let it go, but who knows?

Potato, to my knowledge, what the guy is selling is the legal property of twi. It is their property. As always I could be wrong, but right now, I am deferring to what I know and the opinions of WhiteDove, Oakspear and Rum Runner. It would be interesting if the item stays on ebay until April 12 and/or he does finally get to sell it. Maybe that'd be proof of sorts that what you are saying is more valid.

The overview says that it does not include renting or leasing. Isn't that essentially what twi did with PFAL, rented or leased it out? It always belonged to them however. Unless they (the twi hq or trustees) sold or distributed a particular copy to someone, then that would give someone the right to re-sell or re-distribute under our system.

I get what they are saying, but it seems they are referring to items that were once legally sold and became someone else's property. Here, we are talking about PFAL, an item that always was owned by twi. They never sold it to anyone, as far as we know. Therefore, it is still their property.

Yes, but because twi owns the copyright, copies are essentially bootlegs in the sense that people cannot legally sell them, unless they have permission from the one with the copyright, to sell. Therefore, in order for this guy to legally sell a bona fide copy of PFAL on ebay, he has to have written permission from twi. Do you agree or disagree with that?