oldiesman

I agree, what's your point?

Because of the preconceived judgment of VP being a sex addict and predator, this incident takes on a juicy life of its own. But had he never committed adultery in his life, this incident has little meaning and caused no harm.

Waysider, I disagree with your opinion. No impropriety occured from what I read of that incident.

He asked her if she was uncomfortable and she said no. Where did he force himself on her? She freely gave the backrub. She was an adult, she could have said "no" and that would have been the end of it.

Really? Chapter and verse please. Do you think Wierwille's action in asking for a backrub and offering drambuie to a 20-year old was sin?

Del said: " I talked to her and counseled with her a little bit, and also went before the Board of Trustees on it to try to get some reckoning about what this girl was going through, and others, but it was to no avail". What specifically was told the BOT, wasn't revealed. It wasn't revealed what went on behind the scenes, what thoughts were going through her mind, what thoughts were going through the BOT's mind, and what action was taken, if any. So speculating that VP and the BOT had knowledge of an impending suicide, is folly.

He asked her to give a back rub, and she freely gave one. He asked her if she was uncomfortable and she said no. Later, he didn't go further. From what I read, nothing was forced. What am I supposed to surmise by that incident, that he sinned for asking for a backrub?

Sorry, blaming Dr. Wierwille & Howard for this terrible act is like accusing them of murder, and its wrong. People should be held responsible for their actions, not someone else's. A person commits suicide, you don't blame people who have no knowledge or control over that act. That's not a blame-the-victim attitude, its just plain logic and fairness. Forget Dr. & Howard for a moment ... try putting yourself in the shoes of someone being accused of causing someone else's suicide ... something that was never intended, known about, or consented to. Is it fair to make that accusation?

shiftthis, thanks for posting. I thank God for freedom of religion in America, where folks are free to choose who they fellowship with. Its great to have you here... please keep on posting , I'd like to hear your viewpoint on things.

sky watcher, thanks for sharing. It's sort of nice (and unusual) to read an account about VP not committing some sexual sin when in close contact with women like this. Enjoy your stay at GS cafe.

Dear Fellow Greasespot Posters, Please abide by the forum rules and refrain from personal attacks. Lack of respect and insults directed at fellow posters will inevitably lead to more and more personal insults. Please note:

Same goes for me please. Put me on M&A.

Actually wasn't the standard in the advanced class that it is God's prerogative whether or not revelation is there? You "reach up in daddy's cookie jar" and if something's there, its there. If nothing is there, it is not there. Certainly the possibility that he missed it is there... it's possible, but none of us knows what went on behind the scenes and in everyone's mind at the time... so I opine that guesswork is folly.

To my fellow posters, Please abide by the forum rules and refrain from personal attacks. Lack of respect and insults directed at fellow posters will inevitably lead to more and more insults. Please note:

If you see a poster that looks idolatrous to you, whether you are right or wrong, I think it would be in compliance with the rules of the forums to keep that opinion to yourself. I think we all see things about posters that, if allowed to be typed out, could lead to all types of personal attacks and insults. Let's not get personal with posters and try to be more respectful.

When did they know of an impending suicide? If they knew a suicide was going to happen and did nothing, that's a whole different light on the matter. But no, to speculate on what they supposedly knew about the suicide is folly... we don't know what they knew about this act. Yes they are brothers in Christ, and I do speak for myself and my experience with these guys, taking into account their own stated beliefs in God and Christ as well. You speak for yourself when you call VP a false prophet, and you are free to do so.

The implication was clearly there. Jen-o did it with WhiteDove and he picked up on it. Knock off the personal attacks please. If you guys think that we who still believe PFAL are committing idolatry, fine, you're entitled to your opinions. Just keep the personal opinion to yourself... these things don't need to keep on being written on a forum where topics are supposed to be discussed without personal attacks.

T-Bone, These continued accusations of idolatry by you and others are getting old. Its sort of the same thing when twi taught that the trinity is idolatry ... i.e. anybody with a trinitarian viewpoint was committing idolatry. Much the same here, anyone who believes PFAL is doing so because of idolatry. Worship of the teacher. I think its actually trying to guilt someone out of their beliefs. Accuse them of idolatry.. thats it, make it a guilt trip. They are worshipping other gods! Please knock off the idolatry accusations. If you truly believe this, then keep this opinion to yourself. This is getting personal and its against the forums rules. I will try not to respond in kind even though I have opinions of you that are uncomplimentary and better kept to myself.

A sister in Christ commits suicide, and two brothers in Christ (at least one of them pre-determined to be a monster) gets blamed for it. The sister's own actions are completely exonerated, while the brothers get blamed for an act they have no knowledge of, no control over, no consent offered. This is madness!

What does this question have to do with the topic at hand? This question suggests that Dr. and Howard had knowledge of the suicide and consented to it, but I haven't read anything suggesting that. Del said "I talked to her and counseled with her a little bit, and also went before the Board of Trustees on it to try to get some reckoning about what this girl was going through, and others, but it was to no avail." To say we know what all went on behind the scenes and knew what was in everyone's mind is folly... we don't know.

This is not a strawman, there are arguments in favor of this view. Here's one: The implication being that if a teacher lies somewhere, a teacher can't teach the truth... The content of plagiarized material isn't true because it has been plagiarized. You shouldn't drive the Autobahn because Hitler was involved in building it. and so forth...

I've never been in that situation but would probably feel very sorry for the woman committing suicide, as I'm sure Dr. & Howard did. I don't think of these men as monsters; they were people with feelings. Howard's still alive, maybe somebody can call and ask how he felt when she killed herself, and see what he says.

I would put it this way: If I punched someone in the nose and the cried out, then went home and shot themself in the head; i'd feel responsible for the bloody nose, but I'm sure as hell not taking responsibility for an action I have no control over, like someone else's suicide.

Yes it appears that's how some people think. Its loony. Its like someone successfully using the Autobahn for 20 years, then finding out that Adolph Hitler had them built, then they boycott them because Hitler was involved.