oldiesman

Vince Finnegan is a brother in Christ and I wish him well.

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He's taking on a big responsibility and I wish him well.

All that meant was that someone was "out of fellowship" and susceptible to evil happening to them; but sonship was not affected.

Its the same as when parents have children who may not get along with them. John is the son of Fred and Mary. John will always be the son of Fred and Mary even though John may not get along with Fred and Mary right now. Why? Because of seed. John will always be the son of Fred and Mary no matter where he is. Spiritually it is the same. Christians who are born again have the seed of Christ born within , that cannot be changed, will always be children of God no matter who they may fellowship with and what religion (or lack thereof) they may hold onto.

No.

would anyone like to attend a fellowship with me? let's say hi to the boogeymen and have a twinkie.

I think the "choice" discussion became an issue when someone suggested that this man is brainwashed and in bondage. The choice argument is not defending twi; it is respecting this man's choice as a citizen of this country to choose what religion he participates in even when one might not agree with the tenets of that religion. I think it's really good that you see your knee-jerk reaction. I don't think some folks are able or willing to do that. As a general observation: when some ex-twi folks get to the place that peoples' associations with twi don't bother them anymore and they can let people's associations and choices with twi go, and wish these folks the best and best wishes, then I think they will be at peace and can move on. I did that with the religion of my youth... I wish those folks the best too and spend zero time trying to dissuade their decision.

I am happy for him and wish him and twi best wishes ... this is America and folks have a right to choose their own religious group. Thank God for freedom of choice and freedom of religion.

I've been out for about 16 years now and while I'm happy about that, I have no axe to grind against the folks who are still there... I wish them well and hope they are happy. This is America, thank God for freedom of religion and if that is their chosen religion they have my best wishes.

Oakspear, do you still have a copy of the letter to Reynolds? I'd be interested to know what doctrinal problems you mentioned.

This cyanide analogy never worked for me. How do we know that there isn't a little poison in every religious group and denomination? There may be! Heck some people even think the entire bible is rubbish and poison. What is the answer? I believe the answer is to beware of everything one hears and reads. Test the knowledge, test the spirits. God gave mankind a brain with the ability to separate truth from error and that includes the ability to separate any harmful doctrine of twi away from the good. Take out the harmful leaven and get the new lump. The good does not have to be trashed along with the evil, in fact, I believe that interpretation is erroneous. Prove all things, hold fast that which is good.

Look at the context of I Cor. 5, it is present tense. Present Tense of his time. Paul was correcting the actions of current happenings of his time, not talking about former events of 30 years ago.

Jeff, my reading and interpretation of the verse about the leaven basically means to turn oneself away (present tense) from a wicked person or people. (I Cor. 5). Has little or nothing to do with happenings of 20-30 years ago, rehashing and condemning sins which nobody can change today. If you believe your experience was with wicked people, you are entitled to that belief and opinion and free to share. My experiences seem to differ and I am just as entitled to my beliefs and opinions. With regards to being a tool of twi and using words like "we" as if everyone was a tool, it does seem like it was a disparaging comment about a whole lot of people many of them may not see it that way. That is why I thought it was offensive, not just for me but others as well. Remember this thread is not just a two-way conversation between you and Rascal; many folks are reading it. Didn't seem like Rascal was using "we" meaning just you and her alone; I thought her meaning was clear and I think the use of that inclusion opened the door to other varying opinions in this thread. But being a tool does not apply to me, WhiteDove (and I believe many many others) because of the recognition that our actions in twi were free will decisions that "we" take full responsibility for. Can't blame anyone else. WhiteDove may want to add more reasons why. What may have been in someone else's mind, their possible abuse of someones time and money, their mindset and their sins, is for God to judge. Doesn't make me a tool. God is the judge and searcher of hearts and motives and sins, that's His job.

I think it's an interesting concept but right now "closed threads" are not part of the format. By closed thread, I mean participants of like mind and thoughts and feelings. I thought about starting my own thread about how I and those who think like me were not tools of twi, but what's the point? You or anyone else with a varying opinion may come in and give your varying opinion and we'll have what we have here. I think its possible that closed threads may happen in the future; it may be worth a try if there's enough support for it, perhaps you may want to make a suggestion to Paw. But right now I think we'll just have to live with each other as best we can.

I honestly do still feel that way. When we (you and me :) ) freely availed ourselves to participate in "those good old days" we engaged in a process that helped us learn many wonderful things about life and people and hopefully, brought some folks enduring truths about God and Jesus and the Word of God. Our free will participation could be described as the opposite of being a tool... we decided to freely choose to walk in love and in fellowship with God and Christ and when we worked it was as the scriptures say heartily as to the Lord, and not unto men.

The "we" is offensive. Speak for yourself please.

King Solomon, who communicated great truths but also had predatory sex problems.

I guess Jim Bakker. He had a ministry that blessed thousands but also had personal sex and money problems.

Soundzgood Jonny.

Perhaps through liberty lobby, the storehouse of conservative books and ideology. I'll take a stab as to "why" he promoted these books, i.e., I don't think he really believed that Hitler wanted to kill all the Jews. Also, VPW was a traditional conservative politically, and conservatives, especially fiscal conservaties, do not like big governent spending programs and $ free giveaway programs. From his writings, I believe VPW greatly opposed the fact that the U.S. was sending $billions to Israel each year. To date, it has come to somewhere in the neighboorhood of some $83 billion. I think he believed that the holocaust was being used as propaganda to fuel these endless giveaway programs. From a spiritual standpoint, he believed that "God's chosen of today" was the church of God, the believers in Jesus Christ; similarly he believed that the ideology that "the Jews are God's chosen people" is false today. Spiritually speaking, in his mind Jews who do not believe in Christ are no better or worse than any other Gentile, i.e. they are essentially Gentiles. ( I do not necessarily believe this myself, this is what I think he believed. ) I think VPW believed that a large part of so-called Jews today are like Gentiles and are not part of the original tribe of Judah. Even so, there is no evidence whatever that he believed they are racially inferior to anyone else. Unlike the Nazi tenet that Aryans are racially superior and Jews are racially inferior.

Waysider, it looked like you said that belief of the Nazi tenet of Aryan superiority and Jewish inferiority described VPW by promoting Anti-Semitic literature: I guess the reader can make their own conclusions as to what your writings meant. Yes, actions do speak louder than words, and there's NOTHING in VPW's actions or actions of Corps volunteers that can be compared with a military dictatorship that hauls people into concentration camps, mames and kills people, and is ultimately responsible for the carnage of millions of people.

Promoting "so-called anti-Semitic" literature doesn't make someone a Nazi anymore than it makes Arthur Koestler (Jewish author of The Thirteenth Tribe) a Nazi or Dr. Arthur Butz (author of Hoax of the Twentieth Century) a Nazi or Willis Carto (founder of the Liberty Lobby) a Nazi or the Library of Congress of the United States (that contain these publications) a Nazi regime.

Apples and oranges. The difference between a religious organization and a military dictatorship is night and day. Also forgot to mention that a tenet of Nazism is belief in Aryan superiority and Jewish inferiority. Contrast this to Dr. Wierwilles belief that all peoples are the same and come from the same bloodline (Adam and Eve), all are the same physically and mentally (formed and made the same) and spiritually all can be equal through belief in Christ and acceptance of Christ as Messiah (the new birth, Jews and Gentiles are the same body of Christ). Additionally, the Nazis hated, repudiated, killed and removed Jews from their presence; but Wierwille invited them in...

He was very much the opposite. Nazism is fascism and fascism is totalitarianism, i.e., more and more big government control over people's lives ... and less and less liberty. In contrast VP was a supporter of the U.S. Constitution, i.e. limited government free market system. Americans should realize that politicians like Sen. Obama have more of a fascist slant in their politics than Dr. Wierwille ever had. Not Hitlerian type fascism, but a softer-type fascism wherein big government socialism slowly takes over every aspect of life. The National Socialist party was like the little froggie in the frying pan. ... Americans clamoring, demanding more and more big government "help" feeds these flames.