oldiesman

I disagree that it is correct to claim that VPW claimed he had the whole truth. Thats ridiculous. How could anyone in their right mind claim that they have the WHOLE truth? I believe that VPW claimed and promoted that he believed he had the MOST truth out of any religious group out there and I believe the use of words like ONLY truth and WHOLE truth to describe what I believe was portrayed as THE MOST truth are erroneous fallicies. MOST yes. ONLY and WHOLE no.

But still that does not translate into VP telling us "I am the ONLY source for truth" as Dr. Juedes seems to be repeating. He did not. It is not logical considering all of the facts that prove otherwise. BEST yes, ONLY no.

Taken alone, that statement of VP may cause some to assume that ONLY Wierwille has taught the truth (even though VP didn't say he was the ONLY one to hear from God); but there is other evidence such as his statement "lots of the stuff I teach is not original", evidence of Bullinger & Kenyon books sold in the bookstore for all to read, evidence of his verbal and written statements about learning from men of God scattered across the continent, i.e, evidence of where stuff originated which makes the allegation that TWI was the ONLY source for truth weak and mistaken. I believe repeating this error displeases the Lord.

Thank you socks for confirming what I said and explaining it thoroughly.

Don't know as the answer is subjective according to each person's beliefs and feelings; but that's beside the point I was making.

No, what that proves is that VPW taught that God is a respector of conditions... all those who respect the conditions will get the results, it is not limited to "VPW conveniently determined that the giving had to be to him in order to count." So, those statements in CSBP go toward proving my point and disprove Dr. Juedes' point.

I believe another inaccurate statement is that twi taught they were the ONLY and SOLE place for truth. My recollection is they were claiming the BEST source, not the ONLY source. I believe CSBP supports that idea. Also, VPW said "lots of the stuff I teach is not original", so logically there is lots of truth elsewhere since he got lots of his stuff from outside TWI. Never heard or saw in writing the claim that TWI is the ONLY place there is truth, I think that is someone's fantasy and wishful thinking and my wish is that folks would be more accurate when describing twi and Wierwille's beliefs.

The statement of yours that I dispute is "VPW conveniently determined that the giving had to be to him in order to count"; not anything LCM said or wrote. Just because LCM wrote something does not mean VPW said or meant or believed that exact same thing and I believe that turnabout may border on intellectual dishonesty. I believe the wiser and more accurate approach would be to admit that the words of LCM are his words alone and not assume VPW said or taught the exact same thing that LCM said or taught.

Fair enough Oakspear. I have researched this topic perhaps more than your average Wayfer, writing multiple letters to LCM, the research department (John Schoenheit), limb leader of NY, etc. asking if tithing works elsewhere. This was in response to LCM's article "the tithe doth still provide". Without going into my "Way Memorabalia" file, the gist of the answer that was given to me was "tithing worked best in twi but worked elsewhere too";.... and I think that was the gist of CSBP. That's why I believe Dr. Juedes statement was inaccurate. It is my opinion a more accurate statement would have been the following: "VPW conveniently determined that the giving had to be to TWI in order to count best". Words mean something, so my feeling is let's try to be as accurate as possible so as to avoid misunderstandings. The more precise we are with the facts I believe the greater the power of the argument and the more likely one might be believed.

But which apostles? He did not say. He taught "the apostles feet"; not "me" or "my feet" (speaking of himself). He did not say "tithing works only in twi". Let's be accurate with what he taught. Dr. Juedes said: "VPW conveniently determined that the giving had to be to him in order to count." Not so. That statement is inaccurate... according to CSBP it counted elsewhere also. "You show me a tithing congregation and I will show you a church that is blessed of God". Page 38

Even saying "tithes went to the trustees" would have been more accurate than saying "tithes to VP". As a former participant, I do remember the heart and intent of the monies were to go for "the outreach of the Word of God" and it was in that heart and mindset that the monies (at least mine) were given. Who benefited? Not only VP ... When folks got blessed and the word moved, everyone benefited. And as it says in the bible, "give and you shall receive" so there was benefit to the giver as well, something Jesus taught consistently. Also benefited many employees of twi who received pay for their work. Also inaccurate was the remark about tithing supposedly only counting in twi. VPW taught otherwise.

I know nothing of the sort. All I know is to go by what he taught and wrote and at this point refrain from making an assumption. And no, tithing to VPW IS DIFFERENT than tithing to twi. He didn't say "tithe to the man of God" or even "tithe to me". He said what he said, let's be accurate. I think TWI was much more than just VPW alone. Words mean something and I oppose fudging words like that.

I agree in part .... Although he did write in CSBP that the best place to tithe was (not to himself but) to a biblical research ministry rightly dividing the Word, that doesn't mean it did not count elsewhere. As I recall CSBP says that tithing is immutable and worked for everyone who applied it. He specifically cited the Mormons as those who applied it and prospered. Also, being an immutable law suggests that it is colorblind and would work for everyone (saint and sinner alike) who met that condition irrespective of religious beliefs, race, color or creed. This is what VPW taught... I dont believe that tithing is an immutable law anymore but let's at least be accurate about exactly what he said.

If someone wants to trash the carnal mind, then I think that would have been different. The carnal mind is trashed in scripture no matter who it is (saint and sinner alike) or where they might be or who they fellowship with. Contrast that with the term "Waybrain" ... appears to be trashing only Way participants irrespective of whether they have a carnal mind or not, whether they do God's will or not. I don't know all of these people but it seems to label all of them nuts because of the religious affiliation. Joe Smith wants to attend fellowships in twi therefore he is afflicted with "Waybrain". Seems like not a very nice thing to say about people who for all anyone knows wants to simply participate in a religion; personally I prefer to get to know people first before labelling in a negative way and even then would think twice because this is the U.S. of America with freedom of religion.

Or as they said in the good old days "two wrongs don't make a right." I agree with WhiteDove that Waybrain is a deragatory term. It's a put down...like the word cult. Sort of like being intolerant of others' beliefs. Although GS putdowns are allowed (as long as not directed at fellow posters) someone once said "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" ... I think that principle works well and is appreciated.

The video was on YouTube but apparently was removed due to copyright violation. (I removed the video... not sure if it is allowed to be linked on here.)

I think they believe that the ministry programs are in accordance with what the Lord would want so there is little difference, ultimately one has to decide if it represents what the Lord would want, and I believe those who participate in twi think they are doing that. BTW I think this is true of all religion... for instance the religion of my youth has programs they think the Lord wants, so they think they are serving the Lord with gladness too. They could be. I have more tolerance today then many years ago. But at the same time, I don't condemn twi for having programs either ... this is America with freedom of religion, I thank God we have it.

Obviously not as Jesus himself appeared and condemned his actions. With Christians today, I think it depends on the heart and mindset of the person making the decision. If a heart and mindset is to obstruct and hate and want Christians destroyed, I think no. If a heart and mindset is to have a desire to help people learn God's will as Jesus did, I think yes. Col. is addressed to Christians who have a desire to put God first in their life so I don't see why it wouldn't apply to folks in twi... if that is their mindset to put God first, they are part of the body of Christ just like any other Christian would be...

Why can't the Lord and the ministry be served at the same time? In singleness of heart, fearing God: Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. It is possible to serve the Lord Christ in twi, or by selling donuts at Dunkin Donuts if that is where someone with the heart and mindset of Col 3:23,24 happens to work.

Wordwolf, I am not skilled in biblical research (never suggested that at any time) have no desire in that arena and further have no desire to debate doctrinal issues. However, I would like to render an opinion in this thread which I have done. From Merriam Webster's edition: Main Entry: 1eter·nal Pronunciation: \i-ˈtər-nəl\ Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin aeternalis, from Latin aeternus eternal, from aevum age, eternity — more at aye Date: 14th century 1 a: having infinite duration : everlasting <eternal damnation> b: of or relating to eternity c: characterized by abiding fellowship with God <good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? — Mark 10:17(Revised Standard Version)> 2 a: continued without intermission : perpetual <an eternal flame> b: seemingly endless <eternal delays> 3archaic : infernal <some eternal villain…devised this slander — Shakespeare> 4: valid or existing at all times : timeless <eternal verities> The dictionary meaning of "eternal" is "having infinite duration" or "everlasting". Assuming that is true, there are only two choices in the coming age: life, or death. So what's the bottom line of Mark's research of the word "eternal" that is doesn't really mean "everlasting"? That God promises us eternal life but it may mean eternal death? I don't think that makes any sense. If there is an argument otherwise, Mark and anyone else is free to make it, but right now I don't buy the claim. It seems like a severely watered down version of the intent of God's promise.

With ultimately two big choices available, everlasting life or everlasting death, am very confident the promise of God is everlasting life in the age to come, not everlasting death in the age to come. "My child I will give you eternal life in the age to come then at the appropriate time throw you in the lake of fire and you can burn to a crisp" doesn't make sense...

I don't know that twi used this "as a magical shield to do any dam2 thing they wanted.." because they also taught about loss of rewards as a tangible loss for eternity as a consequence of living in very specific sin as warned in the scriptures. I agree with you that one cannot lose their salvation. It is quite simple. Being born again means being born "from above". That life born from above is eternal life, it cannot die. The new man is eternal.

I grew up in the Bronx so the Yanks were my team. The first time was just magnificent... the old facade which was torn down many years ago was my favorite. Dad had box seats right behind first base -- $4.00 each. The game that was perhaps the most memorable for me was in 1968, I think it was Mantle's last game in Yankee Stadium. He hit 2 homers against the Minnesota Twins but the Yanks lost the game, and I remember the newpaper caption the next day: "Minnesota 3, Mickey Mantle 2".

I pass the Stadium every day going to work but haven't been inside for years. What a great story! I hope they have a great time and perhaps they also can visit the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown sometime. Was there a few weeks ago and had a good time...

I believe my calling to the Body of Christ through twi was the genuine just as someone else involved in any other church group would consider their calling to the Body of Christ the genuine. Not of works, but by God's own purpose and grace. 2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,