oldiesman

Christians Believe The Preposterous

And they call *me* heartless, geeze.

Sounds kinky.

Kit, I missed this offer. Do you still have the statue? My VPW shrine is waiting...

Ginger, I think you're statement is a good one. It sort of reminds me of something said by Naomi Judd in her new book, "Naomi's Breakthrough Guide -- 20 Choices to Transform Your Life." As you may know, Judd has had her share of problems. It says on the jacket of her book that she missed her high school graduation to deliver her first child, endured domestic abuse, lived on welfare, put herself thru nursing school and overcame a life-threatening illness. Wow, that's a lot of hassles. She asked: Sounds like she was once a participant in the "victim mentality" but overcame it. [This message was edited by oldiesman on January 12, 2004 at 16:23.]

Bob, I had no idea you were under that much hassle. Thank you again and again, for staying.

Oakspear, I agree with you on that point, especially in relation to "Christians Should Be Prosperous," which is an excellent example of fear motivation. "You Cannot Afford Not to Tithe" etc. etc. etc. However, it's still your free will decision to have that apply in your life. We could have walked away or not complied at any time, for example. I had questions about Tithing and ABS for years and because of not getting answers that satisfied me, I gave what I felt like, instead of tithing, for a long time. It was a joke, actually. But it was also at a time when TWI wasn't keeping track of what money you put in the basket and you could still give cash. TWI-2 was much worse in that aspect, I hope you agree. For example, people insisting paying by check to keep track, etc.

Although I agree with Paradiseden and Johniam, the above statement by Evan is a good one. I no longer rely on just one group or religion for truth, and the things I do have strong faith on (like salvation by grace, Christ in You, the hope of glody, SIT, etc.) I don't believe will go away even when exploring other views. We learned in TWI that we are children of God and I totally believe that... even if we explore other views it won't change our sonship; even those who now say they aren't christians or children of God having eternal life...I don't believe them, because of Jesus's life and sacrifice. I've changed my mind on a few things too, thanks to Greasepot (like the seed boy teaching, believing=receiving, etc.)

Abigail I beg to differ with your premise. TWI taught that the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. Whether folks lived up to that, that's another story. Being the head doesn't necessarily mean you're always in charge of everything. We were taught that as well.

yeah, reminds me my apartment really needs a paint job.

Oh Balderdash. Sounds like she was horny and wanted some, plain and simple.

Since there's nothing in the bible that says SIT can't be faked, I would opine that some folks could probably fake it. But why fake it when the genuine article is available?

Oakspear, Speaking of mind control, ok then, would you say the same thing about the Roman Catholic church, that they imploy the techniques of mind control? They too believe the pope speaks for God. Personally, I prefer to think of these folks, and TWI folks, as they themselves deciding what religion they wish to practice, what God they wish to worship, who they wish to worship, etc., rather than thinking they are under some sort of mind control. This is America after all, freedom of religion. But I believe that if TWI engaged in mind control and we were in fact brainwashed, then most all other religious people are brainwashed as well. Universities brainwash people, etc. etc. That's sort of why I don't like to paint a broad brush like that.

Steve, go back and read what I was responding to. It had to do with a statement about mind control, not adultery...

LOL... www.greasespotcafe.com

Jonny, I think you prove that "abuse" can also be a state of mind. I suppose someone else in the same circumstance could have portrayed themselves as a victim of abuse. Thanks for sharing.

Oakspear, yes I agree with you on that. All I'm saying is, if you be fair you'll also see this in a whole lot of other religions. It isn't entirely a Way phenomenon to think that the leaders speak God's will and are thought of as men of God. That's the point I was making. BTW, I know very little about life in TWI-2 so feel free to correct my errors on that all you want ... I left TWI in 1990.

Lightside, We know there were healings in twi, but VP continually said that the emphasis of the ministry was "the Word" and not "healings". Do you remember that? and him saying that if the healings never came to pass, "it's still the Word"? Also, I'm not sure that we "got tricked" because we were taught what we had in Christ. To each his own, I guess.

I disagree that married couples who made a decision to have an abortion were sexually abused. What damn nonsense. They had that option open to them, they made the decision, and right or wrong, are responsible for it. Now years later they claim it was TWI's fault? What if it were planned parenthood doing the counselling? I suppose it would be their fault as well. I knew a married couple in TWI who didn't plan to get pregnant, but did. They made the decision to get the abortion, for whatever reason; I don't know if they were counselled about it but it was none of mine or anyone else's business. It was an option open to them, and they chose it. Now is it fair to blame TWI years later? Whatever you believe is your choice, go ahead, but my vote is I don't think they were sexually abused by any stretch of the imagination.

Hey Bob, thanks for sharing. No, I didn't read Valerie's full story. Could you give directions to where it is? I'd like to read it. Thanks bro

And if we adhere to Rev. Liberty's teaching, the participant could even INITIATE the contact, but the responsibility and entire blame for the incident and resulting consequences falls on the minister alone? Ok, whatever... BTW, nothing personal here...just expressing my thoughts and opinions.

A participant decides to have sex, but the participant bears no responsibility for their actions. Blame someone else. A participant decides to have sex without using protection, but the participant bears no responsibility for their actions. Blame someone else. A participant decides to have unprotected sex and gets pregnant, but the participant bears no responsibility for getting pregnant. Blame someone else. A participant decides to have unprotected sex and gets pregnant, then's advised to get an abortion and decides to get one, but the participant bears no responsibility for their actions. Blame someone else. Question: Is there any point at which a participant bears at least SOME responsibility for their own actions?

These are rhetorical questions and don't need to be answered but food for thought: If a young girl can be influenced by someone to get an abortion, were they really ready for motherhood to begin with? Whose decision was it, right or wrong, to get the abortion? Would it have been better to have a minister preach that abortion is murder, then have the burden of bearing a child you didn't really want or plan for?

I know of no instance when Dr. V or Craig said they "cannot be wrong, but if they are, they will let us know." That seems a little over the top, because everyone makes mistakes and folks who've been around the ministry for years know that they (VPW and LCM) have made mistakes. Also, if twi engaged in mind control because the adherents believed that the words spoken by the leaders were "from God", or "revelation", then so many many other religions engage in mind control as well. Let's face it, twi is not alone in this respect.

dizzydog is right. it doesn't make any sense to start new threads when there are open questions. i'm still waiting for answers to the PFAL ERRORS thread. thank you.