oldiesman

Def59, Is the reason why you believe PFAL contained a multiplicity of errors because VPW was as you call him "a scam artist", or is it because of the actual content of PFAL? Try to separate PFAL doctrine from the man Wierwille. This is what Rafael is doing, and I think its exceedingly admirable.

Oakspear, Actually, on the front of Koestler's book he says they became the cradle of Western Jewry; but nonetheless if Rafael thinks it should be put on the list and he says there's DNA evidence supporting his conclusions, it's good enough for me.

Rafael, Thanks and nice job so far. May I make a few suggestions that might improve things? (1) -- I think it might look better in column format, with 2 columns, like a table. The first column heading would read "What PFAL says" (or what other of VPW's writings say) then list in the rows in that column what PFAL says and document the exact page. The second column heading would be "what the bible says" or "other research" or something like that. Then in those cells you would put your responses. Finally for the "discussion" part you may want to use endnotes. I don't know how difficult this is to set up, I'm not knowledgeable how to do this on a webpage, but I do think it would look and feel more professional. But if it's too much of a hassle, then perhaps if you use your existing format and just put in parenthesis the actual page from where you are quoting VPW from, that would suffice. (2) -- Error 9 -- I think this is a big big deal and much further discussion is needed. If its true that the gospels are also written TO us, just as much as the epistles, then I think apparent contradictions between the two need to be explained. (3) -- Error 21 -- Just a small note here, but I think The Thirteenth Tribe is still very much contoversial and not definitively proven one way or the other. I've spoken to a few knowledgeable Jews about this book and there is controversy on all sides. But be that as it may, it says on the front cover that "evidence indicates that the Khazars themselves migrated to Poland and formed the cradle of Western Jewry...". So Koestler is contending that the large part of Western Jews of today (Ashkenazim) come from Khazars, they are Ashkenazim; not eastern, Sephardim Jews, which you correctly point out. But Koestler says that "Western" Jews form this group; while you say he is saying "Eastern" Jews that he doesn't say... Well that's it for now..I hope this helps in some small way.

Thanks...

Rafael, What I meant was actually something like the TWI vs. CES website page. Something on the internet that is listed, like a concise comparitive summary, of the actual errors in PFAL according to yours and others biblical research. I think something like that would be useful.

Rafael, Have you generated, or intend to generate, anything like a line-by-line comparison of TWI teachings vs. actual errors? Something in a list format? I think it might be useful to folks like myself and others who still greatly value PFAL, but bearing in mind that not everything in PFAL necessarily agrees with the bible, or other quality biblical interpretations.

Washingtonweather, Thank you for mentioning her as one who does not rise to victim status. I always thought that if anyone was just as responsible for Tom's death as LCM, it was Tom's lovely devoted wife.

I think that if one wanted to, one can make a case that everyone born on this earth has been a victim. It all depends upon your point of view...

I thank you too Zix, and many thanks to you Rafael for the support and kind words. They're appreciated, always.

Ouch.

Another possible reason why some women never said anything: 3. They knew they had sinned by voluntarily committing adultery with VPW, and they kept their sin with VPW in the lockbox. They confessed their sin to God, asked for his forgiveness, and the matter for all intents and purposes, was forgiven and forgotten.

Perhaps, yes. If she wanted to have sex with him. What you seem to be suggesting is, ALL the women in TWI who had sex with ministers didn't have the option to just say "no". They are ALL victims, regardless of whether they wanted it or not. They are ALL victims (of rape?). I think this is as extreme as you can get. Adults that are not mentally ill can say "no", no matter what gender they are. People are responsible for their actions.

The Highway, I would say that whether an individual was highly coerced is a matter to be determined by the facts in that particular situation. If you are claiming that ALL the women in TWI who had sex with ministers were so highly cooerced and manipulated to the point they were not responsible for their actions, then I would have to decline from that extreme viewpoint. However, I will agree that some fall in that category.

A La Prochaine, Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly. But if the man doesn't do the right thing but instead gives in to his manly urges, why does it always have to be about power and control (which in the argument is like being compared to rape)? This is the premise of this entire argument, that its ALWAYS about power and control in the male. As I said, I don't doubt that happens; but saying it ALWAYS does is, in my opinion, rather extreme.

Radar, You are correct, children are not responsible for their actions. But adults who are not mentally ill, are.

One of the major premises of the soul stealing article seems to be the following: Says who? Would it be at least a possibility that the pastor is having sexual relations because he's horny? I don't doubt there are some cases like this, but I'd like to see the definitive proof that every sexual relation of a pastor/perishioner is about power and control. What about the woman? what if she willingly wants it?

I assume you told VPW not to touch you and he went ahead and did it anyway? If that's the case, then you were his sex slave for a nite. Perhaps I shouldn't have said "always"; I'm sure there were a couple of exceptions. I would also put children in that group; those who grew up in TWI and were forced to do certain things because of their parents, had no choice in the matter either...

I agree fully. The key element is that the possible various forms of slavery were always voluntary. The door was always open...

If you never were told this, perhaps you can get any and all monies reimbursed to you from the booting situation? Check it out...

I was going to say that myself. PFAL doesn't have to be perfect, to still be a tremendous blessing to folks who want/need to hear great truths about God and Jesus.

Please refresh my memory but, didn't VPW teach in PFAL that if you don't know something, it's much better to say "I don't know", than say something false or something you "think" you might know, without really knowing? I don't remember where I heard it, but I know I heard that teaching someplace from TWI-1.

Fresh, Are you referring to folks who are still involved? I don't know of any, or hardly any that have posted here. What fungus? I wish there were more...I have a few questions myself..

Hi John, Thanks for the invitation to talk; that would be nice someday. No doubt in my mind that at various times, folks were treated badly; to deny that would be nuts. However, I still don't accept the victim mentality propaganda that permeates Greasespot Cafe. In my opinion, the "frog in the frying pan" analogy doesn't fit because it assumes that we (the frogs) were there to be cooked by an all-encompassing evil. Slowly, slowly we were being cooked...it was planned that way. I still don't buy it... There were other forces at work; not only the forces of evil in peoples lives... Because the victim mentality approach won't allow any room for the godly, wonderful things we experienced. It can't, because it's fundamentally at cross purposes with it. Some folks involved with TWI forgot; care to forget; prefer not to recollect; prefer not to be forthcoming about; the wonderful ministry we once were part of. You can't do that, and portray yourself as a victim, at the same time; the two are incompatible. I guess the reason why I come to vehemently disagree with some threads, is because the premise BEGINS with TWI being an evil organization from the start (frog in the frying pan, etc..)...I guess if that's true, the rest all makes sense. But I still haven't bought into that idea. Getting back on topic, I accept that TWI-2 became completely secluded...that's very obvious.

Excuse me, but WHAT A CROCK!!

Qami, Shame on you. You're comparing the Corps with people getting murdered? The folks who died that day didn't know they'd be killed that day. But the folks who signed up for the Corps, knew they were going on a program where they had to follow the direction of their coordinators/leaders. Was it possible you were subjected to fear and stress because that was part of the program, to OVERCOME fear and stress? Make you a stronger person? It sounds to me like you're complaining that it was too tough....almost like signing up for the military, then complaining years later that they were too tough on you.. Hey, YOU SIGNED UP for it did you not? And if you didn't like it the first few weeks, if it wasn't your thing, you could have left. Some did. The unfortunate folks at the WTC who got killed couldn't leave, they were trapped and it was too late.