oldiesman

One other comment about Fred Price...I was watching his program a few months ago and I couldn't believe something he taught...something in the bible that suggested to the effect that one can "lose their salvation if they don't curtail their sinful habit patterns." I don't know whether he took PFAL or not, but Price's teaching that day certainly was evidence to me that he was far far from the PFAL teaching on salvation, which perhaps was one of the most important and meaningful in PFAL.

I agree with Goey but don't with Golfie.

Raf, the times at GS I've come to the defense of VPW are so miniscule compared to the volume of negativity propounded. You don't mind hearing about all the junk but balk when someone has something nice to say about him? That's not fair. But at any rate, if your tired of hearing me speak about him, I will commit to being silent till the end of the month. How's that?

I thought you meant let's stop talking about him altogether. I'm game for that. Let's all do it, all of us, not just you and me. That's what I was game for...

Raf, you're wrong, and misjudging me. Ok then, might I suggest we talk about God's Word and stop talking about VPW. I'm game.

Ex10, I think TWI's teaching (which of course is in large part J.E. Stiles and B.G. Leonard) of what the Holy Spirit is and means to folks is the best and most useful I've heard. I still speak in tongues after all these years. That's an extreme comfort to me. It's really had an impact on my life.

Raf, What the Hay and I are not dismissing the evil and I think you know that. What we are saying is that we are not dismissing the good, BECAUSE OF the evil. Rascal and others would like us to, no doubt. Are you suggesting we are dismissing the evil because we also note and give meaning and credence to the godly experiences? Also I find it disturbing you would be on the side of someone who proclaims our blessings in TWI were paid for by the misfortune of others. If that's not extremely one-sided I don't know what is. Surely you don't believe that nonsense do you?

Colleen, I mentioned the Hitler comparison because it has been used before, here and on Waydale. But some folks do actually think the worst about VPW at all times, every day of the week; and compare him to Hitler and Dahmer. He's the worst of the worst, always will be, to them.

This is the exact reason why you are blinded by hatred and can't reason much of anything else. It doesn't matter what godliness he did, because even the good has an evil connotation. IT WAS evil in your eyes.

The price of my blessing was paid by Jesus Christ at the cross... at one time communicated to me aptly by VPW and others. You choose to unrelentingly focus on your hurt and disgust of VP. You don't care about anything else.

Why is it so important for some folks to make comparisons like this? VPW wasn't a murder or a cannibal but let's just think the worst. Like I said, it doesn't matter what good he did, he was a monster to some folks.

If all someone thinks about, cares to listen to, and unrelentingly talks about is the harm VP did, then they are being blinded by hate. I wouldn't call that behavior a bastion of objectivity, would you?

P.S. To prove this point, why is it that when someone says they received some godliness at the hands of VPW and TWI, it just simply doesn't matter to some folks. That's a fact. Who cares what good was done? People got hurt. The hurt is more important. The evil is all that matters. You don't deny some folks have advanced that viewpoint, do you?

I agree wholeheartedly. I think What the Hay and I are talking about those folks who don't care what good VPW did, he was EVIL. Period. After all, Adolph Hitler did some good things too, right? You certainly aren't denying there are folks here who think that way, are you?

What the Hay, I'm with you on this point. It just doesn't matter to some folks anything good VPW did, it just doesn't matter, because he was nothing more than an evil monster to some. No matter who he helped along the way. His good works don't matter to some because they are quite blinded by hate of the man. There is simply no objectivity left.

I still strongly believe this and nothing anyone's done has changed my mind. God's gifts to mankind are without repentance and in TWI-world this was thought of as the greatest form of service. This was the hand of God's blessing on TWI despite the evil skeletons in the closet.

Coolwaters, you didn't mention anything about restructuring before; no I don't think that would have been bad. BTW, I think not having the Way Corps would have been just fine. If that's part of the restructuring, I'd agree. I think the Way Corps did more harm than good. Other viewpoints may vary.

Coolwaters, you're comparing one person who went bad, to TWI that was still doing godly things despite the evil works (with most of it very secretive)and reaching folks with the Word who needed and appreciated it. As Zixar pointed out, TWI was comprised of lots of folks who stood faithful and made a difference, despite VPW. I wouldn't have canned the whole thing because VPW took liberties he shouldn't have. I think that's the dead wrong way to look at it.

Zix, I happen to disagree with you here but don't have a problem with what you've said either. But at any rate, folks don't see this EVEN IF it was ONLY God responsible for the godly things going on. It appears that no matter what, some folks will always think (or consistently proclaim) it was all just a phony charade.

Ok no problem. TWI should never have existed because of the evil acts, is that what you really believe?

Coolwaters, As usual, you're looking at only one side of the coin. Lots and lots of folks got blessed in TWI-1. Why should it have been stopped when so many folks benefitted? Even some who now faithfully trash TWI have said they've gleaned godly things from it. It wasn't all a charade.

Goey, You and Oakspear have taken issue with my statement of using the word "most" instead of "much" as characterizing your statement. Ok, no problem. So then are you saying that I was wrong that you believe "most" of what VP taught was erroneous and self-serving? Am I wrong? Are you saying that most of it was godly? The impression I've gotten from you over the years is that you have nothing much good to say about VPW, TWI and PFAL. If you've said some things, I've certainly missed them. Am I wrong? Then when I point out your feelings, and excuse me, mistakenly use a different word you used, you accuse me of twisting the meaning. Come off of it will you please? You've had virtually nothing good to say about PFAL and TWI and VPW since you been here. If I'm wrong, please give me the courtesy of correcting my error and tell me what godly things came from PFAL and TWI. Otherwise, please stop accusing me of twisting your words and meanings.

What The Hay Said: What The Hay, no need to mince words here, I believe (and maybe you as well) that VP made a positive difference in all of our lives, in varying degrees, especially those of us who hung around TWI 10, 15, 20, 25, even almost 30 years, whether folks will admit to it or not. That's why we hung around TWI for so long...the ultimate compliment for TWI was that we folks hung around that long.

Ex10, you didn't miss it, in fact you were there to witness it. He led (or was a major part of a movement that led) thousands of folks to a more accurate knowledge of the bible, folks who might not have been reached otherwise. No question in my mind that's a huge accomplishment.

P.S. VPW got all or most of his stuff from men of God scattered across the continent. So then if most of what he taught was erroneous and self-serving, would it be fair to say these men whom he got these biblical truths from were erroneous and self-serving as well?