oldiesman

Dr. Wierwille was completely faithful in teaching the biblical truths on how folks are reconciled to God. Thank goodness we weren't a group something like the moonies, who taught that Sun Young Moon was the Second Coming...

Coolwaters, I gave my two cents previously on that. I don't think the Wierwille's (either VPW or DEW) would have ever condoned it. I think one of the differences between you and me is you look on those guys and see monsters; I look and see people.

You're talking about the Corps, correct? Yeah well that was part of the program. You had times when children weren't under their parents supervision, and the training method was with "the rod". The theory was (and I'm winging it a little here) is that other parents are your brothers and sisters in Christ, that being the case you trust one another to do the right thing. I remember one time as a little kid, I was in Roman Catholic "release time" Wednesday afternoon. We were standing in line at the church, and I said something, I forget what, and the nun hauled off and smacked me right in the face. I don't remember whether it was something I said out of line, or what, but I sure remembered it. Knowing the way I was, it was probably something I said out of line. My parents trusted that the nun did the right thing. It didn't hurt me. What hurt me more was the fact they didn't teach the Word much...I had to get involved with TWI to finally learn some things that made some sense.

You just won't understand that physical punishment could be a good thing if one learns something from it. I'd much rather suffer physical pain and teach me a valuable lesson than make a really REALLY big mistake later.

Coolwaters, thanks for admitting that. This has everything to do with it, and your ideas about TWI. Naturally, if you believe hitting is child abuse, you'll believe TWI was promoting child abuse. You're not alone...I've spoken to folks outside TWI that also believe hitting is child abuse. I think your belief may also be a sign of the times we are in. We're losing old, established concepts that were considered valid for thousands of years (another example: marriage used to be between male and female).

I have no idea. I think TWI should put each segment on the internet so folks could view it, for free. It would be a great public service.

George, I agree with you, some of PFAL is B.S. But that's not what you first said, you said "bible b.s."... But I'm glad you still believe the bible...maybe?...

Abigail and Vickles, I will answer your questions in this manner: Do I think TWI promoted child abuse: NO Do I think the Trustees are responsible for cases of spankings and beatings: NO Do I think use of the spoon is child abuse: NO Do I think spanking is child abuse: NO Do I have children: NO Do I think the bible justifies spanking and beatings: YES Is it possible to go overboard and spank and beat too hard: YES Did TWI have people involved in it that went overboard and spanked and beat too hard: YES Is 2 years old too young to spank: ? have no idea, I think it's parents discretion. I wouldn't. When my father beat me I learned a lesson. Was it child abuse? I don't think so, especially since I know he loved me and wanted the best for me. I would say generally, that if you think beatings are wrong then you have a problem with Proverbs, which is pretty clear on this topic. I can say this, I've committed some wrongs in my life that I'm so ashamed of that I wish now, someone was around to haul off and give me some pain... I would have learned a lesson sooner before damage was done.

If folks thought that the bible was B.S. (or even TWI, for that matter), they wouldn't have hung around for so long -- 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years, for example. That's sure a lot of time to decide what's b.s. and what's not, wouldn't you say?

Tom, What's your take on use of the spoon? Is it child abuse?

I don't know about anyone else, but when I go to the supermarket I almost always see people begging for money of some sort. You see poor little children being prodded by their overweight parents looking on. They put these little kids on the spot, begging for money. Its nauseating. Please go get a job and stop bothering me.

PFAL helped thousands of folks including myself. I'm thankful VP taught it; it met lots of needs. Those are the facts, as much as some like to trash it now.

Vicks, if TWI was so terrible, why did folks hang around for 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 years, especially since it was supposed to have encouraged child abuse? I'm not with them because TWI-2 has been considered by many to be exceedingly legalistic, among some other doctrinal issues I now disagree with. However, if there were a fellowship nearby me, I wouldn't have a problem going to check it out. But it'd be a cold day in hell before I gave them money. What's your take on the spoon? Is it child abuse?

That is the question I'm asking you. You don't believe there is a right way to do that? All those years in twi and you can't come up with the right way to do that? You were there all those years and the thought about doing that the right way never crossed you mind? What do you believe today? Is spanking child abuse? use of the spoon?

So then use of the wooden spoon constitutes child abuse? CW, do you believe that spanking a child constitutes child abuse?

The coordinator wanted silence at his meeting. I don't see how he condoned child abuse. is that what you're suggesting? JT, We've all seen and been a part of this happening. A young child is screaming during twig. What do you do? The twig coordinator says "why not beat the crap out of him"? Is that what you're suggesting was the norm? What I think was the norm was the parent leaving the room with the screaming child, as you did. I've seen that happen many times. So where was TWI promoting child abuse?

Nonsense. We were taught the right way to apply those verses. You're saying we weren't. You're rewriting history.

Coolwaters, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Are you saying that those verses in Proverbs promote child abuse?

Of course TWI-1 was acceptable...are you kidding? Since I was involved for 17 years in a system that supposedly promoted child abuse, I would have picked up on it long before now. Wouldn't you have? By the way, we were taught in TWI that "the rod of correction" was to be used with love, to help the child, not used to beat the crap out of the child out of anger or malice. You know that as well as I so please stop trying to re-write history. But I know there are folks who think if one even raises a finger to a child, it's child abuse. If those are your beliefs, you should have left TWI the moment you learned about those biblical passages about the rod. 20-30 years later and it qualifies for child abuse? I know you're trying very hard to put TWI in its most miserable light possible, it just doesn't work when you rewrite history. I am not denying the legitimate cases of child abuse, I've even seen it happen myself. But it's how you're framing the argument what I object to. Everything is TWI's fault, all the time. Period. There's not even a hint of objectivity.

Was there ever anything we were taught in TWI that actually encouraged and promoted child abuse? Chapter and verse please. It seems funny how lots of folks hung around for so long, 20-30 years even, in that system that supposedly encouraged and promoted child abuse. One might have thought they would have walked away long, long ago under those conditions.

I think this is the best advice. However, if it really bothers you, you could write a letter to your mother, tactfully expressing your anger and dismay at her actions. It may not do any good but at least you've communicated your feelings. If you're still intent on suing somebody, consult with a lawyer but I doubt you can get anything after all this time.

My response was in the context of someone possibly accusing Don Wierwille of knowing about child abuse happening and doing nothing about it. I think my statement still holds true...things happen that the BOT knew nothing about. Regarding VPW's so-called responses...would it surprise you to learn that his mail was screened and its quite possible that he never saw what Coolwaters wrote? I know this firsthand, because I wrote him myself and got back responses signed by his screeners, but signed "Victor Paul Wierwille". I examined and investigated and found out that one of my letters was screened, and VPW never saw it. So yes, its possible that VPW didn't know about it and she got responses from letter screeners. Don Wierwille also could have been uninformed...

Here's my opinion on this sad topic: there's no question that child abuse happened, but before I accuse someone of facilitating a crime, I'd want to get proof that they (by they, are we talking about the BOT?) knew what was happening and facilitated it. You can't blame the BOT for everything evil that went on. Some folks would like to. But I just remember what type of a man Don Wierwille was and can't believe he would have tolerated any instances of child abuse. "Prove all things"...

One other comment about Fred Price...I was watching his program a few months ago and I couldn't believe something he taught...something in the bible that suggested to the effect that one can "lose their salvation if they don't curtail their sinful habit patterns." I don't know whether he took PFAL or not, but Price's teaching that day certainly was evidence to me that he was far far from the PFAL teaching on salvation, which perhaps was one of the most important and meaningful in PFAL.

I agree with Goey but don't with Golfie.