oldiesman

Cathy, no problem at all, thx for the apology but it's really not necessary; I realize these issues can be upsetting... Thx for the support, Oaks... Have a great weekend... Love, Oldies

The questions on this thread are good ones and I'll consider and examine them and how they relate to my thought processes. Thanks...

Rascal, I believe God is Just, and He will enact justice, either in this life or throughout eternity, in His Eternal Kingdom... I thought I was on the same page as other folks on this, but I guess not... Steve, some folks have had good experiences with VPW; I am one of them. I will admit to being a VPW-loyalist as a result of the godly experiences that he was a part of concerning my life. But I don't think my attitude is one of worship. Just how are you defining worship? I'll be happy to get over it if I can define it as something I'm doing that's ungodly.

Raf, I understand where you're coming from and agree with what you're saying. VPW did plagiarize some things, there's really no question about it anymore. But it doesn't bother me. He shouldn't have...but I don't take it personally or hate him for it. I don't feel hate towards VPW. God will have to make it up to Leonard and others who got ripped off financially. On the other hand since Kenyon's stuff was in the Way bookstore, his ministry probably benefitted some financially from TWI folk like us. Stiles book wasn't there, so he lost out. On the other hand, there wasn't all that much there. I don't know how Leonard really felt about it, but if he was really teed off at VP for using his material, he probably should have sued. That's what I would have done if I viewed it as that major an offense. But I think God will make it up to him, at any rate.

Raf, did you happen to check out Kenyon's website and their response about Kenyon being plagiarized. What do you think? And might we possibly apply some of this thinking to Dr. W ? Was Kenyon Plagiarized?

Steve, the only way I can fathom VP not being born again is if the bible itself is false. I'd bet on a stack of bibles and everything I own that VP was born again. I'd bet my own salvation on it. Why? He taught Romans 10:9,10 and John 3:16 for years, convincingly for years, and years, and he spoke in tongues. He wrote books on the redemption powers of Jesus Christ. Back in Session 5 of PFAL... a man simply can't teach that convincingly how to get saved and not be saved himself; what's the point? He teaches for years how to get multitudes saved yet he's not saved himself? That's too far out.

Shaz, no, no, no, no. VP's sinning was not ok as stated already...

Rascal, I'm unwilling to consider that VPW was a child of the devil, because I don't believe that people lose salvation if they sin, even repeatedly. I think the teaching that people can lose salvation because of sin is harmful, and devilish, and not representative of what God did in Christ, therefore it's a lie. IMO, someone who knows all these things and still claims VPW was a child of satan should get challenged on it.

Committing adultery and plagiarism doesn't make a person a child of the devil, as you accused VPW being. Had you not made that false accusation I probably wouldn't have said anything. Do you believe that a persons sins causes them to lose salvation?

I never excused VP of his evil acts, so this is more deception. Even if the girls willingly had sex, it's still at least adultery where VPW was concerned. I've said that repeatedly. That may be true, but if I have a difficult time believing something and ask questions about it, what's wrong with challenging? If posters don't want to be scrutinized, they shouldn't post. But the reverse is also true, and even more so. Anyone who is pro-twi or pro-VPW gets challenged repeatedly.

Raf I'll try to answer these things as best I can because you asked. I don't know if Dot Matrix is all wrong but I do notice deception and hate, definitely, especially where VPW is concerned. She can call me whatever she wants, I really don't care, but let's not distort the record. I've said on more than one occasion that VP did evil works and good works, that he was a compilation of the two. Saying he was doing only evil is distorting the record. Promoting he did evil only distorts his life and this is probably why she thinks he was a child of the devil. This actually may be true. I have an open heart (or try to) when you speak because you have proven to be objective. You point out the good and the bad. I like that. Especially with the PFAL class. I really like that. On the other hand, the "victims" seem to only look at one thing, the evil works of VP. That's the only thing that has any meaning for them, it seems, or at least that's how they come off. So be it, but I don't see that as being objective or representative of history and reality. This is another deception. I don't think I ever called anyone a liar, and if I ever did, I know I apologized later (people pointed out my error and I changed). On the other hand, I don't have to believe every story either, especially coming from people who tend to distort the record, fudge the facts, think VP is a Child of Satan, etc. I think some stories are colored with prejudice and hate against VPW, I know this because I've checked with other non-posting sources who say they were at the same meeting, or may have been privy to that experience, etc., who interpret the same experience as entirely different. But I still keep my mouth shut, generally, until the false accusations are so blatant (vp is a child of the devil) etc. As far as following her whereever she goes, I don't know who she's talking about. More deception. I do defend TWI-1 when I think its appropriate, but have complained about some things too, ABS/TITHING comes to mind. I try to "learn" from what others share but not to the point of discounting or denouncing what good I've experienced. And I've had a lot of negatives to say about TWI-2. Partly true. I think I come off as a Wierwille patriot because I don't forget the good he's done. But I know he's done bad things and have acknowledged those also. I did say that Dot Matrix is being blinded by hatred of VPW, and I do believe that based upon her comments about him being a child of the devil. It is hatred when you think ONLY evil about VPW, which Dot Matrix demonstrates. What about all the good he's done? She's been around long enough to know what good he's done. Oh well, it doesn't matter. Adolph Hitler did some good things too right? yada yada yada... I have no difficulty believing he committed evil works like adultery and plagiarism. However, allegations of drugging and rape I do have my doubts about. (Maybe I would feel different if I actually spoke face to face with the women who allegedly experienced this.) I've pointed out that women could have just said "no" to VP (like Dot Matrix did!) and they wouldn't have been "abused". I've also pointed out that its possible that these women who had sex with VP actually may have wanted to. They wanted to "bless the man of God". Those are their words. I HAVE TO GET TO WORK NOW...MORE LATER....

Imablvr, you were blessed at and by TWI, if you were there. Admit it, people at TWI were part of that process. Unless you were actively involved in the real BG's ministry, your statement (you were blessed by BG's ministry) is a result of another lie, that the blessings we had were there "only because of God and B.G. Leonard." What nonsense! That's a lie, similar to the lie that VPW was a child of the devil, and has a place in hell. These are lies from the Father of Lies, spewed with bold spittle from someone who demonstratively thinks only evil about VPW. Believing these lies causes you to denounce where you were even! IMO, due to the words of Dot Matrix folks should get out their Spiritual Halitosis meter and start using it.

Good Lord. I think if the Devil Himself were writing this, He couldn't put his thoughts any more bold and blatant. I profoundly disagree with these words and do not relate or acknowledge these words or experiences in any way in my time in TWI-1. They are lies, lies from the fiery pit of hell. Railing bold words of evil designed to falsely accuse one of God's children from someone who apparently thinks they are the Searcher of Hearts. WOW, what boldness! It demonstrates how hatred of a person, in this case VPW, blinds and distorts anything and everything VPW ever did. Geeze no wonder why the Wierwille's don't post on here. Goodness gracious.

Raf, I hear what you're saying and think you're making good arguments... Am still working thru this in my head. Thanks as always for your (and others') input.

Raf, in that particular instance, I don't view it as plagiarism. There are enough dissimilarities....a large one for instance in ideas...one statement is promoting the "gifts" of the spirit while the other is promoting "manifestations". Two completely different and distinct meanings. That's not to say VP shouldn't have given much more credit to Leonard; he should have. I keep thinking that maybe this was one reason why VP didn't have Leonard's books in the Way Bookstore, among others, because there were enough dissimilarities that VP viewed as glaring error on Leonard's part. But I still think VP should have communicated more about how he benefitted from Leonard.

Mike said: I think Dr. boosted the sales of Kenyon and Bullinger because all of us had access to those books in the Way bookstore. However, I never saw any of Leonard's books there. So to say Leonard's sales were boosted is incorrect. Further, I never heard VP advocate taking any of Leonard's classes...has anyone? on the other hand, Mike said: I do agree with that statement....

Mark, I think the reason why they'd never do that is because Dr. & Mrs. wanted everything in TWI's name. What I think SHOULD happen now, is for sweet Rosalie to step up to the plate, being the President and all, and put everything of her own property in TWI's name just as Dr. & Mrs. did, following the same example. Am I correct that the house Mrs. Wierwille lived in all these years is in TWI's name? Well if that's the case then Rosalie should do the same. Since Harve is so concerned about ministry assets, perhaps he should push that idea, if for no other reason than BOT consistency. How about it Harve?

Harvey said: Let me get this straight: Harvey is not for spending ministry assets covering Mrs. Wierwille's personal expenses, because he's afraid that will mean if they did, that eventually, Mrs. Wierwille's assets will eventually go to JP? How bold and concerned Harvey is, to point out that ministry assets might be abused that way! Then I'm sure Harvey will have no problem walking into his boss's office, and demand that she stop using ministry assets for her own personal needs, like cleaning her home, manicuring her lawn, cleaning her pool, etc. and all the other personal servicing that they get by with. Hell, they live like kings and millionaires. Do I have that right or am I off base? And why does sweet Rosalie still, even after all this time, own her own home? Dr. & Mrs. Wierwille put everything in TWI's name, right? How about Rosalie? Harvey, do you see the contradiction?

Rafael, I would say no, because there's a bunch of material that's different, and VP adds more stuff than Stiles says, and Stiles says other things that VP doesn't say. If you do a word by word comparison I would say definitely not. There are similarities yes, but I don't know if that rises to the level of plagiarism.

It might be a good idea to begin a list of what changes innies should be demanding? Below are a few suggestions: 1. Tell Donna Martindale to go back with her husband. 2. Start teaching that adultery is a sin, and really mean it. No more excuses. 3. No more fear motivation where tithing is concerned. As a matter of fact, no more fear motivation, period. 4. Have BOD term limits. [This message was edited by oldiesman on March 08, 2003 at 0:43.]

What I have so far is RHST (2nd Ed.) plagiarized approx. 80% of the "faith blasters" statement of Stiles' "Gift of the Holy Spirit"; and RHST (6th Ed. (which is the one I own)) plagiarized "Gift of the Holy Spirit" approx. 50% of the same statement. If anyone knows of any more instances of plagiarism from J.E. Stiles book only, please let me know. I've ordered B.G. Leonard's "Gifts of the Spirit" to see what I can come up with.

Rafael, Thanks for your input, as usual you give excellent advice.

Wayfer Not, That sounds like a good idea; I'd like to know what she says myself. Evan, I'm going to order B.G.'S book and let you know what I think...

Washingtonweather, Thanks for your input. I have the Kenyon books, so what words/paragraphs in those are plagiarized and in which VPW books are the plagiarisms to be found?

Long Gone, Shortly after the time I read that VPW plagiarized material (I read this from Dr. John Juedes' website), I bought my own copy of J.E. Stiles book, and compared it with my own copy of RHST (3rd edition from 1972). As I recall, I couldn't find anything that was plagiarized, or if I did, it was only a few sentences. I guess that was because Dr. John Juedes was referring to the 2nd edition of RHST, a book that I didn't have, and nobody else seems to have. I want to see plagiarism in my face, so there's no mistake. THEN I will call it plagiarism. Where I will agree with Dr. John Juedes is the overall assumption that most of us, as new believers, thought VPW'S stuff was completely original. Sort of like starry-eyed PFAL students thinking VPW got everything by revelation. But as we stayed around long enough, we knew it wasn't like that. Long Gone, have you made a personal comparison of Bullinger's "Giver and Gifts" with your copy of RHST, and came up with massive plagiarism? If so let me know, I will gladly buy a copy so I can see it for myself.